Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > Europe
Reload this Page >

Road to a Grecian turn?

Road to a Grecian turn?

Old Jun 25th 2015, 6:16 am
  #526  
Polished expat
Thread Starter
 
Red Eric's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 16,803
Red Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas
Even after the pension reductions which have already gone through the average pension in Greece is still higher than in Germany - €959 vs €734 but more important is the contributions that have to made to get this pension. In Germany a pensioner will have contributed 23.4% more than his Greek equivalent.

Given who is financing the bailout such an inequity is morally reprehensible and that is why this is such a sticking point.

PS From information provided by OECD just after Tsipras took power.
May I see this OECD information?
Red Eric is offline  
Old Jun 25th 2015, 6:51 am
  #527  
Hostage Negotiator
 
InVinoVeritas's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,173
InVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Here it is, Eric :-

http://www.oecd.org/fr/els/pensions-...ofil-Grece.pdf

It's in French I'm afraid.
InVinoVeritas is offline  
Old Jun 25th 2015, 6:56 am
  #528  
BE Forum Addict
 
Maybe1day's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Location: (Ex Liguria)
Posts: 1,833
Maybe1day has a reputation beyond reputeMaybe1day has a reputation beyond reputeMaybe1day has a reputation beyond reputeMaybe1day has a reputation beyond reputeMaybe1day has a reputation beyond reputeMaybe1day has a reputation beyond reputeMaybe1day has a reputation beyond reputeMaybe1day has a reputation beyond reputeMaybe1day has a reputation beyond reputeMaybe1day has a reputation beyond reputeMaybe1day has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Quoted from INVINOVERITAS (Even after the pension reductions which have already gone through the average pension in Greece is still higher than in Germany - €959 vs €734 but more important is the contributions that have to made to get this pension. In Germany a pensioner will have contributed 23.4% more than his Greek equivalent.)

Those pension figures really surprise me, the average for German pensions is on the poverty line for Italy. In Italy the average is over 1K. Prices in German shops are not low either, so their so called poverty line must be a lot higher................

Last edited by Maybe1day; Jun 25th 2015 at 6:58 am.
Maybe1day is offline  
Old Jun 25th 2015, 9:48 am
  #529  
BE Forum Addict
 
bigglesworth's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: The Charente - still smiling.
Posts: 2,624
bigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Pensions are never clear.
Take a look at BE thread
http://britishexpats.com/forum/germa...nsions-796883/
The Which figures are quite plain, but seem very high
The Toytown ones are very different - and do not add up. But seem very low.
bigglesworth is offline  
Old Jun 25th 2015, 8:50 pm
  #530  
BE Forum Addict
 
bigglesworth's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: The Charente - still smiling.
Posts: 2,624
bigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

The BBC website says Varoufakis is on Questiontime tonight.
bigglesworth is offline  
Old Jun 26th 2015, 6:25 am
  #531  
Polished expat
Thread Starter
 
Red Eric's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 16,803
Red Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas
Here it is, Eric :-

http://www.oecd.org/fr/els/pensions-...ofil-Grece.pdf

It's in French I'm afraid.
If it was in Greek I'd have had difficulty but as it is I can see that it doesn't confirm your allegations at all. No average pension mentioned in that link, nor data or links to other data that would enable one to calculate it. I seriously doubt that the OECD has recent enough figures to give the monetary value of an average Greek pension even 1 full year before the current government took office, if indeed they give that information out at all. The figure I constantly see quoted at the moment (without a source) is much lower.


Aside from proving my ability to correctly identify ratty odours, however, I still think it's disgraceful the way pensions have been made so much of. There is a deliberate conflation of two unrelated issues to make it look as though one was caused by the other and to which there is a beguilingly simple solution. It certainly appears to have worked in turning popular opinion against Greece.


Picking out one detail from a country's social security arrangements and comparing it against another country is comparing apples to pears. Furthermore, to say that Germans, or any other citizens are paying for Greek pensions is absurd.


As far as I'm concerned the troika has no business meddling at that level anyway. They should be agreeing broad targets and letting the governments of bailed-out countries decide in what manner they wish to achieve them. If they're going to insist on doing things at a detailed level, they should allow flexibility and it's clear from the past few days that they are not doing so in this case.


What was it you said about micro-managing earlier?
Red Eric is offline  
Old Jun 26th 2015, 7:25 am
  #532  
Hostage Negotiator
 
InVinoVeritas's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,173
InVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Eric - you need to get your calculator out and use it - same advice to your friend Tsipras. The information is there, if you want to check the German figures there's another OECD report for that in the same format.

I don't believe I have said anything about micro-managing

As to your suggestion that Greece can be given targets and then trusted to manage their economy.....well, there are no polite words to describe this idea
InVinoVeritas is offline  
Old Jun 26th 2015, 7:47 am
  #533  
Polished expat
Thread Starter
 
Red Eric's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 16,803
Red Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

OK, I have found figures with a quoted source (please don't tell me they can't be relied upon as they come from Greece)- not that the matter of the actual amounts is at all important, as far as I'm concerned. It's the principle of cutting pensions in payment especially when those pensions have already been cut by up to 48% that I object to and its presentation as being reasonable by comparing Greek pensions to those elsewhere but in isolation from any other matters.

The latest official figures provided by the social security system’s online service (IDIKA) for March 2015 indicate that 2.9 million main pensions were paid with a monthly cost of 2.07 billion euros, implying that the average main pension is 713 euros. The figures show that almost 76 percent of main pensions stand below the 1,000-euro mark.

In addition, 1.64 million supplementary pensions were paid in March with a cost of 277 million euros, which corresponds to an average supplementary pension of 169 euros.

...

Note, though, that for around 45 percent of pensioners their monthly pension income stands below the 2013 poverty limit of 665 euros
Red Eric is offline  
Old Jun 26th 2015, 8:02 am
  #534  
Hostage Negotiator
 
InVinoVeritas's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,173
InVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

As I stated previously it's not just the amount of the pension but how it is financed. Greeks pay less pension contributions than the Germans but end up with a higher pension.

Plus in Greece they still have all kinds of people who are allowed to retire early such as fashion models, hairdressers and TV presenters to name but a few!
InVinoVeritas is offline  
Old Jun 26th 2015, 9:26 am
  #535  
Dunroaming back in UK
 
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: Expat in Yorkshire now
Posts: 11,274
Garbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas
As to your suggestion that Greece can be given targets and then trusted to manage their economy.....well, there are no polite words to describe this idea
trust them

The one thing we know for sure is that absolutely no one trusts the current Greek Government and they only have themselves to blame for lying, sorry using constructive ambiguity........

The trouble is Greece is running out of other people's money and the Syriza solutions offered so far are just the same old fashioned socialist ones that got Greece into the mess in the first place.

Syriza promised a new approach and have, unfortunately, offered nothing new in policy terms although in their defence they have managed to make a lot of people despise them, which is a form of progress.

I do agree with Eric that more of the same austerity is just as mad as the Syriza approach...
Garbatellamike is offline  
Old Jun 26th 2015, 10:06 am
  #536  
BE Forum Addict
 
bigglesworth's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: The Charente - still smiling.
Posts: 2,624
bigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond reputebigglesworth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Eric I believe your quote comes from Macropolis. But no matter.
There are 2.1 million people in Greece over 64.
The arrticle says 2.9 million pensioners. Therefore 28 percent are in receipt of early pensions - voluntary redundancy, early retirement or whatever but still a huge proportion.
Secondly the UK state pension is about €9.5K versus €8.5K in Greece, But the cost of living in the UK is 77 percent higher than in Greece
Cost Of Living Comparison Between Greece And United Kingdom
bigglesworth is offline  
Old Jun 26th 2015, 10:24 am
  #537  
Hostage Negotiator
 
InVinoVeritas's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,173
InVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Bad timing or what?

Greece has become the fastest growing champagne market in the world!

Oddly, sales have fallen in Germany and France.

Now what were we saying about Greece and austerity?

Greece has the fastest growing champagne market
InVinoVeritas is offline  
Old Jun 26th 2015, 10:31 am
  #538  
Dunroaming back in UK
 
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: Expat in Yorkshire now
Posts: 11,274
Garbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond reputeGarbatellamike has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas
Bad timing or what?

Greece has become the fastest growing champagne market in the world!

Oddly, sales have fallen in Germany and France.

Now what were we saying about Greece and austerity?

Greece has the fastest growing champagne market
They just elected a bunch of champagne socialists - should not have come as a surprise
Garbatellamike is offline  
Old Jun 27th 2015, 1:06 am
  #539  
Hostage Negotiator
 
InVinoVeritas's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,173
InVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

So more game-playing by Tsipras and Varoufakis. If they really thought this was an issue to be decided by the people they could have had the referendum when the result could have made a real difference.

In any case, what value a referendum when they have been lying to their people since they started this campaign and will continue to do so during the referendum.

Doubt it will get that far though, my money is on capital controls now.
InVinoVeritas is offline  
Old Jun 27th 2015, 6:08 am
  #540  
Polished expat
Thread Starter
 
Red Eric's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 16,803
Red Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond reputeRed Eric has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas
Eric - you need to get your calculator out and use it - same advice to your friend Tsipras. The information is there, if you want to check the German figures there's another OECD report for that in the same format.


...




As I stated previously it's not just the amount of the pension but how it is financed. Greeks pay less pension contributions than the Germans but end up with a higher pension.
I don't need to get my calculator out to see that neither the average pension received nor the contributions required to get it can be obtained from the data in the link you posted.


Elsewhere, the OECD data shows that the percentage of salaries paid in pension contributions are higher in Greece than in Germany - and that was in 2011, before a number of major changes to the system.
Red Eric is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.