Red Eric

I largely agree with you bigglesworth.


It has been said over and over that it's not a matter of if Greece leaves the eurozone but when. It certainly doesn't look like now to me. However, it can't continue in the eurozone without debt restructuring, so that's the new if/when and I hope it's sooner rather than later.


The author of that Guardian article, by the way, is an MP in the Greek parliament representing Potami, who are in opposition to Syriza. It's a pity the Guardian didn't see fit to mention that either at the head or the foot of the article - it certainly puts a different light on his call for a government of national unity, amongst other things.


I have found the Guardian's coverage of this crisis, and the issues surrounding bailouts and austerity in general, to be woefully one-sided. There are some good discussions below the line on some articles and particularly on the live economics blog though.

Garbatellamike

I also tend to think Biggles has pretty much nailed it.

The Guardian is the bible of neo-liberals so it was hardly likely to be impartial and I don't give it anymore credibility than the Mail, which is similarly politically biased but on the other wing.

If you want to read something unconditionally biased in favour of the Syriza point of view then the Morning Star also has plenty of one-sided views articles on this topic.

It is difficult to find a serious publication, which is not inherently politically biased these days......

Red Eric

Are you sure you meant that about the Guardian? - I agree it appears to be toeing the neo-lib line, which is what makes it less than objective in this matter. I expected better - NOT unconditionally or otherwise biased in favour of Syriza but not obviously and persistently biased against it. Neutral reporting would be my ideal when it comes to news - opinion pieces are different, obviously but again, there's precious little in support of the Greek government's position in the Guardian.


Continually stating, as though it were fact, that Syriza have failed to come up with "credible" ideas for reform or for a budget is incorrect, for example. It is the stance the creditors have taken (whether even they believe it or not is another matter) and journalists should make that clear. Likewise on many other contentious issues.

Garbatellamike

I am 100% sure of the Guardian's consistent lack of objectivity and its inherent bias; therefore, I don't actually see a need for them to state that bias when pretty much everyone knows they are just a downmarket political rag like the Torygraph and the Mail albeit with a different political bias from those other 2 crap publications.

The Guardian likes to peddle the neo-liberal delusion that overall public opinion has shifted massively leftwards so they now sit in the centre of the political spectrum . The trouble for them is it is only blindly committed Guardian readers that believe that sort of nonsense hence Labour's recent electoral disaster when faced by the weakest ever Tory government, which was (and still is) led by a vacuous pillock.

I think the challenge we are facing is sifting out the facts from the huge amount of nonsense being reported when there are people who regard ambiguity as constructive involved and there are also huge competing personal agendas in play.

Red Eric

I think you and I probably have different understandings of what neoliberalism is.

Garbatellamike

I suspect you may be right there Eric and I note that you have used the term in a pejorative context earlier in the thread.

I prefer using the term "a neoliberal" to calling someone "a toynbee" or a "Guardianista" but for me they are more or less the same thing .

Seriously though the terms "liberal" and "neoliberalism" have different meanings in a political context than they do in an economic context and this may be where the different understanding is???

Garbatellamike

Well judging by the jubilation of Tipsyrash and Varoufakeit at the moment they have reached exactly where they want to be for Monday with an EU Summit to discuss where to go without having to worry about doing any of the actual details - "the political solution".

It looks more and more like the "Blazing Saddles Sheriff Gambit" was their only plan after all hence all the timing wasting and posturing to date.

Now it seems to me that the 64 000 dollar question is whether Frau Merkel chooses the "believe him men he is crazy enough to do it" response or merely says "go ahead and shoot yourself you imbecile".

A very interesting weekend in progress with the summit outcome to come on Monday. I note there is already a huge ammount of capital flight today making it 50/50 as to whether the Greek banks will be open on Monday.

If Tipsy pulls this off he is indeed a genius. If not he will be forever remebered as the raving lunatic who led Greece to economic oblivion.

We should know by Monday one way or the other.

bigglesworth

My bet is next Monday.
I suspect Tsipras is a fan of Dick Barton..

And with one bound he was free.

I remain convinced. The EU will NEVER permit Greece to leave. It would signal the beginning of the end of the project.
The rotting corpses of the Greek people will line the roads all the way to Brussels.

Garbatellamike

Yes I think you are right on that at least as far as the EU Commission are concerned and some of the more Euro-fanatic leaders too.

However, I think countries like Slovenia, Finland, Portugal, Spain, Lithuania (and as of today Denmark) would happily see the Greeks booted out.

Red Eric

My definition of neoliberal encompasses politics and economics. I wasn't aware that non-Guardian readers thought the Guardian was a champion of neoliberalism - it is generally thought, as far as I'm aware to be anti neoliberalism. I'm not sure about that given the predominance of the neoliberal viewpoint in most of its coverage of the Greek crisis.

Garbatellamike

Ah Ok understood. Most people define them differently in those 2 different contexts - sorry for the confusion.

Red Eric

Is that really what you believe?


They have presented detailed proposals and spent months negotiating. Apparently they had reached agreement with the creditors on many matters. They presented yet another proposal yesterday.


Just because it's not what the creditors want them to inflict on their population doesn't invalidate it. Assuming all parties are actually interested in stabilising Greece's economy (and the big question is are they?), it merits serious consideration.


I will be surprised if when an agreement is eventually reached it doesn't make some concessions along the lines of the Greek proposals. Naturally, Greece may have to make some further concessions too.


And yes, it became a political matter long ago.

Garbatellamike

Answers in RED.

Red Eric

Why?

Garbatellamike

Why what?