Road to a Grecian turn?
Jun 9th 2015, 1:52 pm
#436
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Mike - you're very insistent on the idea that Greece is all talk and no do but it has been stated by Varoufakis on several occasions that they are not at liberty to implement measures without the agreement of the creditors and that the creditors are insisting that the whole package be agreed before anything is done. This has not been denied by the creditors, so I assume it is true. If you have a link to a statement from the creditors saying that Greece is free to introduce any legislation it likes, please post it.
The one time they implemented a measure that they refused to clear first was over the emergency welfare assistance to those of the population most severely affected by the crisis, which drew a very sharp rebuke and accusations of unilateral action from the creditors.
The one time they implemented a measure that they refused to clear first was over the emergency welfare assistance to those of the population most severely affected by the crisis, which drew a very sharp rebuke and accusations of unilateral action from the creditors.
Jun 9th 2015, 1:54 pm
#437
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Jun 9th 2015, 1:55 pm
#438
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
What she said was that if the other creditors were agreeable to lowering the primary surplus they (but not the IMF
) would have to also agree to restructuring of the debt they hold, as the repayment schedule would be unsustainable with the lower primary surplus.That is why the IMF is sticking to its guns on a higher primary surplus and thus being seen as the toughest member of the Troika as well as being at odds with its bailout partners.
Jun 9th 2015, 2:12 pm
#439
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
"The OECD analyzed the laws and regulations in place on the four most important sectors of Greece's economy: tourism, food manufacturing, building materials and retail. The sectors provide about 25 percent of the country's employment.
The group found hundreds of regulations that cause Greek businesses to struggle—and which many American business owners would find unfathomable.
In 2013, the OECD published a list of changes Greece should make to ensure a more competitive economy. At the time, the Greek government committed to them. But more than a year later, the reforms are half-done at best.
"Austerity" is the catch-all word for a long list of requirements imposed on Greece by its international creditors, in exchange for more than 250 billion euros ($280 billion) of bailout loans. But many, if not a majority of those requirements, remain unfulfilled—particularly those designed to help the Greek economy grow and recover from the depression of the last six years.
The government is still deeply entrenched in the decision-making processes of businesses. And the bureaucracy, though reduced, is still overwhelming.
One of the most controversial proposed reforms, and one that never went through, was in the milk market. Greek prices for milk are 30 percent higher than in the rest of Europe.
Greece is the only country in Europe that has legislation to determine the permitted shelf life for milk—five days. In other countries, the milk producer determines the "sell-by" date, and it's their responsibility to ensure the safety of the product.
The result: Foreign producers can't enter the Greek market because their product would be almost out of date by the time it gets to the shelf. Fresh milk is still consumable for as long as 15 days, according to the OECD, which recommended that the legislation be abolished.
The reform didn't happen. Instead, the permitted shelf life was extended to seven days, according to the Ministry of Development. A quick look at supermarket shelves by CNBC found only locally produced fresh milk.
The failure likely comes from an unwillingness or an inability on the part of the government to confront vested business interests that are trying to prevent competition, according to some Greek entrepreneurs."
Jun 9th 2015, 2:19 pm
#440
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Lagarde was not pressuring for debt relief on their behalf, even though it may have seemed that way when she was quoted out of context.
What she said was that if the other creditors were agreeable to lowering the primary surplus they (but not the IMF) would have to also agree to restructuring of the debt they hold, as the repayment schedule would be unsustainable with the lower primary surplus.
That is why the IMF is sticking to its guns on a higher primary surplus and thus being seen as the toughest member of the Troika as well as being at odds with its bailout partners.
What she said was that if the other creditors were agreeable to lowering the primary surplus they (but not the IMF
) would have to also agree to restructuring of the debt they hold, as the repayment schedule would be unsustainable with the lower primary surplus.That is why the IMF is sticking to its guns on a higher primary surplus and thus being seen as the toughest member of the Troika as well as being at odds with its bailout partners.
For crying out loud - she was on their side in the argument for the EZ and ECB giving debt relief and they go out of their way to piss her off - idiotic is too kind a word for that. They have so few friends they can't afford to lose any with such an immature approach to something so important.
Last edited by Garbatellamike; Jun 9th 2015 at 2:39 pm.
Jun 9th 2015, 2:25 pm
#441
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
I found this article on CNC, written a few months ago, which explains it better than I could:-
"The OECD analyzed the laws and regulations in place on the four most important sectors of Greece's economy: tourism, food manufacturing, building materials and retail. The sectors provide about 25 percent of the country's employment.
The group found hundreds of regulations that cause Greek businesses to struggle—and which many American business owners would find unfathomable.
In 2013, the OECD published a list of changes Greece should make to ensure a more competitive economy. At the time, the Greek government committed to them. But more than a year later, the reforms are half-done at best.
"Austerity" is the catch-all word for a long list of requirements imposed on Greece by its international creditors, in exchange for more than 250 billion euros ($280 billion) of bailout loans. But many, if not a majority of those requirements, remain unfulfilled—particularly those designed to help the Greek economy grow and recover from the depression of the last six years.
The government is still deeply entrenched in the decision-making processes of businesses. And the bureaucracy, though reduced, is still overwhelming.
One of the most controversial proposed reforms, and one that never went through, was in the milk market. Greek prices for milk are 30 percent higher than in the rest of Europe.
Greece is the only country in Europe that has legislation to determine the permitted shelf life for milk—five days. In other countries, the milk producer determines the "sell-by" date, and it's their responsibility to ensure the safety of the product.
The result: Foreign producers can't enter the Greek market because their product would be almost out of date by the time it gets to the shelf. Fresh milk is still consumable for as long as 15 days, according to the OECD, which recommended that the legislation be abolished.
The reform didn't happen. Instead, the permitted shelf life was extended to seven days, according to the Ministry of Development. A quick look at supermarket shelves by CNBC found only locally produced fresh milk.
The failure likely comes from an unwillingness or an inability on the part of the government to confront vested business interests that are trying to prevent competition, according to some Greek entrepreneurs."
"The OECD analyzed the laws and regulations in place on the four most important sectors of Greece's economy: tourism, food manufacturing, building materials and retail. The sectors provide about 25 percent of the country's employment.
The group found hundreds of regulations that cause Greek businesses to struggle—and which many American business owners would find unfathomable.
In 2013, the OECD published a list of changes Greece should make to ensure a more competitive economy. At the time, the Greek government committed to them. But more than a year later, the reforms are half-done at best.
"Austerity" is the catch-all word for a long list of requirements imposed on Greece by its international creditors, in exchange for more than 250 billion euros ($280 billion) of bailout loans. But many, if not a majority of those requirements, remain unfulfilled—particularly those designed to help the Greek economy grow and recover from the depression of the last six years.
The government is still deeply entrenched in the decision-making processes of businesses. And the bureaucracy, though reduced, is still overwhelming.
One of the most controversial proposed reforms, and one that never went through, was in the milk market. Greek prices for milk are 30 percent higher than in the rest of Europe.
Greece is the only country in Europe that has legislation to determine the permitted shelf life for milk—five days. In other countries, the milk producer determines the "sell-by" date, and it's their responsibility to ensure the safety of the product.
The result: Foreign producers can't enter the Greek market because their product would be almost out of date by the time it gets to the shelf. Fresh milk is still consumable for as long as 15 days, according to the OECD, which recommended that the legislation be abolished.
The reform didn't happen. Instead, the permitted shelf life was extended to seven days, according to the Ministry of Development. A quick look at supermarket shelves by CNBC found only locally produced fresh milk.
The failure likely comes from an unwillingness or an inability on the part of the government to confront vested business interests that are trying to prevent competition, according to some Greek entrepreneurs."
Of course they made the rod for their own back with their daft promise to halve the debt whilst staying in the EZ but that is no excuse for their immature approach to negotiations.
Jun 9th 2015, 2:28 pm
#442
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
However, if you measure "do" by making vague and unverifiable announcements at Press Conferences that don't lead to anything, I am 100%wrong - maybe we have different definitions of "do"????
I am hoping that they are, at last, currently making some detailed proposals in response to the Commission that can be turned into "do" - please please let it be so!
Last edited by Garbatellamike; Jun 9th 2015 at 2:41 pm.
Jun 9th 2015, 6:16 pm
#443
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Vino - thanks for the response.
I think the issues identified there come under the heading of "liberalisation of the market for goods and services", which was on my list.
I have read persuasive justifications for this kind of regulation which the Troika want changed but I do know that Syriza are prepared to tackle the dismantling of it in order to get a deal. I mentioned (to some derision) the accord signed by the new government with the OECD earlier on this thread.
Naturally, while negotiations continue, they will not be leaping in to dismantle trade barriers as a) it's one of their bargaining chips and b) they have to agree a full package with the creditors before they start on anything.
The fact that the previous government agreed to do this and failed should not be laid at the door of Syriza, who hve only been in office for a few months and are governing with both arms pinned firmly behind their backs at present.
I suspect that eventually, when those protectionist policies have been swept aside, we will have a very different set of vested interests, this time non-Greek, controlling the internal Greek market. I'm dubious that that will be of benefit to their economy. Small-scale agriculture is one of its mainstays - flooding the market with cheap foreign produce will likely destroy that.
I think the issues identified there come under the heading of "liberalisation of the market for goods and services", which was on my list.
I have read persuasive justifications for this kind of regulation which the Troika want changed but I do know that Syriza are prepared to tackle the dismantling of it in order to get a deal. I mentioned (to some derision) the accord signed by the new government with the OECD earlier on this thread.
Naturally, while negotiations continue, they will not be leaping in to dismantle trade barriers as a) it's one of their bargaining chips and b) they have to agree a full package with the creditors before they start on anything.
The fact that the previous government agreed to do this and failed should not be laid at the door of Syriza, who hve only been in office for a few months and are governing with both arms pinned firmly behind their backs at present.
I suspect that eventually, when those protectionist policies have been swept aside, we will have a very different set of vested interests, this time non-Greek, controlling the internal Greek market. I'm dubious that that will be of benefit to their economy. Small-scale agriculture is one of its mainstays - flooding the market with cheap foreign produce will likely destroy that.
Jun 9th 2015, 6:28 pm
#444
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Vino - thanks for the response.
I think the issues identified there come under the heading of "liberalisation of the market for goods and services", which was on my list.
I have read persuasive justifications for this kind of regulation which the Troika want changed but I do know that Syriza are prepared to tackle the dismantling of it in order to get a deal. I mentioned (to some derision) the accord signed by the new government with the OECD earlier on this thread.
Naturally, while negotiations continue, they will not be leaping in to dismantle trade barriers as a) it's one of their bargaining chips and b) they have to agree a full package with the creditors before they start on anything.
The fact that the previous government agreed to do this and failed should not be laid at the door of Syriza, who hve only been in office for a few months and are governing with both arms pinned firmly behind their backs at present.
I suspect that eventually, when those protectionist policies have been swept aside, we will have a very different set of vested interests, this time non-Greek, controlling the internal Greek market. I'm dubious that that will be of benefit to their economy. Small-scale agriculture is one of its mainstays - flooding the market with cheap foreign produce will likely destroy that.
I think the issues identified there come under the heading of "liberalisation of the market for goods and services", which was on my list.
I have read persuasive justifications for this kind of regulation which the Troika want changed but I do know that Syriza are prepared to tackle the dismantling of it in order to get a deal. I mentioned (to some derision) the accord signed by the new government with the OECD earlier on this thread.
Naturally, while negotiations continue, they will not be leaping in to dismantle trade barriers as a) it's one of their bargaining chips and b) they have to agree a full package with the creditors before they start on anything.
The fact that the previous government agreed to do this and failed should not be laid at the door of Syriza, who hve only been in office for a few months and are governing with both arms pinned firmly behind their backs at present.
I suspect that eventually, when those protectionist policies have been swept aside, we will have a very different set of vested interests, this time non-Greek, controlling the internal Greek market. I'm dubious that that will be of benefit to their economy. Small-scale agriculture is one of its mainstays - flooding the market with cheap foreign produce will likely destroy that.
Jun 9th 2015, 9:01 pm
#445
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
However, in view of what Vino posted, which was neither his, your, nor my opinion, I think the fact that this government has signed up to an accord with the OECD (and will therefore be paying handsomely for that expertise out of their cash-strapped economy) and that the creditors and others have made such a big deal of previous governments' failures to carry out the OECD-suggested reforms, should be more than enough as a signal of their good intent.
I'm not saying that the OECD carries weight with regard to the bailout but they do with regard to one aspect the creditors are insisting on ie the identification of obstacles to the liberalisation of the market for goods and services, the suggestions of measures for their removal and the measurement of the success of that part of the programme. There is no other body that I know of that undertakes this work.
Jun 9th 2015, 9:41 pm
#446
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
You don't need my permission to post anything you like. I appreciate the remarks you made above regarding my posts - thankyou and I have the same respect for your opinions as you have for mine.
However, in view of what Vino posted, which was neither his, your, nor my opinion, I think the fact that this government has signed up to an accord with the OECD (and will therefore be paying handsomely for that expertise out of their cash-strapped economy) and that the creditors and others have made such a big deal of previous governments' failures to carry out the OECD-suggested reforms, should be more than enough as a signal of their good intent.
I'm not saying that the OECD carries weight with regard to the bailout but they do with regard to one aspect the creditors are insisting on ie the identification of obstacles to the liberalisation of the market for goods and services, the suggestions of measures for their removal and the measurement of the success of that part of the programme. There is no other body that I know of that undertakes this work.
However, in view of what Vino posted, which was neither his, your, nor my opinion, I think the fact that this government has signed up to an accord with the OECD (and will therefore be paying handsomely for that expertise out of their cash-strapped economy) and that the creditors and others have made such a big deal of previous governments' failures to carry out the OECD-suggested reforms, should be more than enough as a signal of their good intent.
I'm not saying that the OECD carries weight with regard to the bailout but they do with regard to one aspect the creditors are insisting on ie the identification of obstacles to the liberalisation of the market for goods and services, the suggestions of measures for their removal and the measurement of the success of that part of the programme. There is no other body that I know of that undertakes this work.
The trouble is that even reasonable Syriza requests are now being ignored given the fact they have forfeited any trust by their game playing, posturing and insults.
If Tipsyrash can pull the rabbit out of the hat on this one by agreeing with the not-troika something he can also get through the left platform in his own party he will indeed be an impressive figure.
The jury is still out.
Jun 10th 2015, 4:20 am
#447
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Joined: Jun 2013
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Merkel has the same problem with her party. So just two rabbits out of hats required here!
Jun 10th 2015, 5:18 am
#448
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
I think it is structural reforms which are being demanded and I don't believe any of your examples fall into that category.
Austerity has never been the solution, it is a by-product of getting spending back under control - it exists only as long as it takes to achieve growth through sensible reforms.
This method worked for Ireland and appears to be working for Spain and Portugal. Perhaps because it was correctly implemented and the people did not keep trying to find a way around it?
Austerity has never been the solution, it is a by-product of getting spending back under control - it exists only as long as it takes to achieve growth through sensible reforms.
This method worked for Ireland and appears to be working for Spain and Portugal. Perhaps because it was correctly implemented and the people did not keep trying to find a way around it?
Portugal showing off finances to set apart from Greece
Jun 10th 2015, 6:36 am
#449
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Jun 10th 2015, 6:40 am
#450
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Confirmation now that this same medicine has worked for Portugal as well:-
Portugal showing off finances to set apart from Greece
Portugal showing off finances to set apart from Greece
A bit brutal that last comment.