Road to a Grecian turn?
Mar 18th 2015, 10:21 am
#181
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
The new Greek government reminds me of myself as a child when I was given one of those plastic airplane construction kits at Christmas.
It looked oh so easy on the box until I opened it up looked at the complicated instructions and assembly and soon realized that I had to ask Dad for help or in the case of Greece the EU and wider financial world.
As I found trying to do it all myself resulted in one hell of a mess with Dad saying " I told you so ".
It looked oh so easy on the box until I opened it up looked at the complicated instructions and assembly and soon realized that I had to ask Dad for help or in the case of Greece the EU and wider financial world.
As I found trying to do it all myself resulted in one hell of a mess with Dad saying " I told you so ".
The latest wheeze of Syrzia is to set up a Parliamentry Commission to unilaterally decide which parts of their debts to the "Not-Troika" are legal and which are illegal - you couldn't make it up!
Mar 18th 2015, 10:24 am
#182
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
OK then - here's something else they want(ed) to vote on today. A proposal to allow tax arrears to be paid in instalments.
Now, looking at this sensibly, it seems a reasonable proposal. After all, if a debtor simply hasn't got the money to pay the full bill (and fines / interest?) in one go, wouldn't it be a good idea to allow staged payments?
If that sort of thing can be vetoed outside of Greece to prevent them doing it, it seems as though their sovereignty is being very seriously compromised. And it does appear that they have to submit every single measure for scrutiny before it can be enacted.
Now who's time-wasting? The ECB and the Eurozone are trying to bludgeon Greece into submission. Time for some constructive change, methinks.
Now, looking at this sensibly, it seems a reasonable proposal. After all, if a debtor simply hasn't got the money to pay the full bill (and fines / interest?) in one go, wouldn't it be a good idea to allow staged payments?
If that sort of thing can be vetoed outside of Greece to prevent them doing it, it seems as though their sovereignty is being very seriously compromised. And it does appear that they have to submit every single measure for scrutiny before it can be enacted.
Now who's time-wasting? The ECB and the Eurozone are trying to bludgeon Greece into submission. Time for some constructive change, methinks.
Mar 18th 2015, 10:27 am
#183
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
IMF said to consider Greece most unhelpful client in history!!!!
Says it all:
ekathimerini.com | IMF said to consider Greece most unhelpful client in history
Says it all:
ekathimerini.com | IMF said to consider Greece most unhelpful client in history
Mar 18th 2015, 1:29 pm
#184
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
But that plan got the blessing of the troika when it was deployed in Portugal to generate extraordinary tax receipts which enabled the government to achieve the (already revised) budget deficit target last year. So why are they so obstructive about it being used in Greece?
Mar 18th 2015, 1:51 pm
#185
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Desperate times indeed, Vino.
But that plan got the blessing of the troika when it was deployed in Portugal to generate extraordinary tax receipts which enabled the government to achieve the (already revised) budget deficit target last year. So why are they so obstructive about it being used in Greece?
But that plan got the blessing of the troika when it was deployed in Portugal to generate extraordinary tax receipts which enabled the government to achieve the (already revised) budget deficit target last year. So why are they so obstructive about it being used in Greece?
There's really no time left for consultation but a fait accompli isn't going to win any favours.
Last edited by InVinoVeritas; Mar 18th 2015 at 3:50 pm.
Mar 19th 2015, 8:27 am
#186
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
It should not be necessary but unfortunately it is. Vis a vis last nights Deputy Fin Min VTC where Grece declined to provide any information on measures and said they were escalating it to the summit (which does not have Greece on the agenda) leaving all the other countries flabbergasted.
Mar 19th 2015, 8:33 am
#187
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Desperate times call for desperate measures not time wasting
Get on with it!
In sum: It is unclear what the meeting will achieve as all the participants, with the exception of Mr Tsipras, have consistently said that the February agreement must be honoured.
Last edited by Garbatellamike; Mar 19th 2015 at 8:43 am.
Mar 19th 2015, 10:39 am
#188
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Mrs M today:
Chancellor Merkel outlined a number of issues that were to be on the agenda during two days of the EU Summit set to open in Brussels later on Thursday. These included the proposed TTIP free-trade agreement between the European Union and the United States and the possible extension of economic sanctions on Russia over the ongoing conflict in Ukraine.
Later in her speech, she addressed an issue that will be on leaders' minds but not on the agenda of the actual summit: the dispute between Greece and its international creditors over the terms of its financial bailout and reforms promised by the new left-wing government in Athens.
Merkel warned lawmakers in the Bundestag, the lower house of parliament, not to expect a quick solution to the dispute - not during the summit in Brussels, nor during a meeting with new Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras in Berlin on Monday.
Referring to the talks on Monday, Merkel said she expected the discussion to be frank and open.
"We will have time to talk to each other in detail and perhaps also to argue," she said, sparking laughter from some parliamentarians. Merkel added that while Germany and other members of the international community were prepared to help Greece, Athens needed to uphold its side of the bargain by implementing much-needed financial reforms so that one day it would no longer require assistance.]
Later in her speech, she addressed an issue that will be on leaders' minds but not on the agenda of the actual summit: the dispute between Greece and its international creditors over the terms of its financial bailout and reforms promised by the new left-wing government in Athens.
Merkel warned lawmakers in the Bundestag, the lower house of parliament, not to expect a quick solution to the dispute - not during the summit in Brussels, nor during a meeting with new Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras in Berlin on Monday.
Referring to the talks on Monday, Merkel said she expected the discussion to be frank and open.
"We will have time to talk to each other in detail and perhaps also to argue," she said, sparking laughter from some parliamentarians. Merkel added that while Germany and other members of the international community were prepared to help Greece, Athens needed to uphold its side of the bargain by implementing much-needed financial reforms so that one day it would no longer require assistance.]
Mar 19th 2015, 2:44 pm
#189
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
The Greek government offered up the February agreement in its place but are now being held to ransom by the withholding of the last tranche of funds unless those measures are implemented.
Dijsselbloem's recent remarks re capital controls could be taken in various ways - a cynic might say that he was deliberately trying to spark more withdrawals from the banks to up the pressure on the new government even further.
Mar 19th 2015, 3:26 pm
#190
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
As I understand it the sticking point is not the February agreement at all but rather the remaining outstanding measures agreed to but not implemented by the previous government which, if it has been reported correctly, include more pension cuts and VAT increases (and of course the new government regard such measures at this stage as anathema)
I accept Greece signed up to the agreement in Feb under some duress and that various actors are now deliberately increasing pressure on the Greek government (which imho they have to do to try and make them see sense).
This is why people in the EU/Eurogroup are now referring to "the Varoufakis Problem". The problem being he agreed a deal in Feb, signed up to it and then reneged upon it hence the talk of the need to regrow trust. The "not-Troika" will not take anything on trust anymore, which has made the Greek negotiating position even worse.
It is a complete mess and now is the time for real and concrete action not posturing at press conferences and demanding more meetings! Get on with it!
Mar 19th 2015, 6:40 pm
#191
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
I have to thank you Eric for animating this thread which otherwise would be full of old farts, like me, agreeing with other of farts like...
Mar 19th 2015, 7:45 pm
#192
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Mar 20th 2015, 8:08 am
#193
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Mar 20th 2015, 8:09 am
#194
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
And I really have to disagree with this.
The deal has not been reneged on - what was originally proposed by Greece was amended to a point where it was (grudgingly) agreed by both sides but with the creditors demanding more detail before the release of any more funds. If I remember correctly, the date agreed for that was 20th April.
Greece has not gone back on that - far from it, although it has, by implementing the most urgent of the measures without the explicit authorisation of the creditors, ruffled some feathers.
Those feathers belong to people who appear to me to favour life-threatening poverty in order that they can make a political point.
Eric, I have to confess that I do not share your understanding in any way shape or form. Nor, as a matter of fact, do the Eurogroup Finance Ministers, the ECB, the Commission, the IMF, the German Chancellor.......................
I accept Greece signed up to the agreement in Feb under some duress and that various actors are now deliberately increasing pressure on the Greek government (which imho they have to do to try and make them see sense).
This is why people in the EU/Eurogroup are now referring to "the Varoufakis Problem". The problem being he agreed a deal in Feb, signed up to it and then reneged upon it hence the talk of the need to regrow trust. The "not-Troika" will not take anything on trust anymore, which has made the Greek negotiating position even worse.
It is a complete mess and now is the time for real and concrete action not posturing at press conferences and demanding more meetings! Get on with it!
I accept Greece signed up to the agreement in Feb under some duress and that various actors are now deliberately increasing pressure on the Greek government (which imho they have to do to try and make them see sense).
This is why people in the EU/Eurogroup are now referring to "the Varoufakis Problem". The problem being he agreed a deal in Feb, signed up to it and then reneged upon it hence the talk of the need to regrow trust. The "not-Troika" will not take anything on trust anymore, which has made the Greek negotiating position even worse.
It is a complete mess and now is the time for real and concrete action not posturing at press conferences and demanding more meetings! Get on with it!
Greece has not gone back on that - far from it, although it has, by implementing the most urgent of the measures without the explicit authorisation of the creditors, ruffled some feathers.
Those feathers belong to people who appear to me to favour life-threatening poverty in order that they can make a political point.
Mar 20th 2015, 9:51 am
#195
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
And I really have to disagree with this.
The deal has not been reneged on - what was originally proposed by Greece was amended to a point where it was (grudgingly) agreed by both sides but with the creditors demanding more detail before the release of any more funds. If I remember correctly, the date agreed for that was 20th April.
Greece has not gone back on that - far from it, although it has, by implementing the most urgent of the measures without the explicit authorisation of the creditors, ruffled some feathers.
Those feathers belong to people who appear to me to favour life-threatening poverty in order that they can make a political point.
The deal has not been reneged on - what was originally proposed by Greece was amended to a point where it was (grudgingly) agreed by both sides but with the creditors demanding more detail before the release of any more funds. If I remember correctly, the date agreed for that was 20th April.
Greece has not gone back on that - far from it, although it has, by implementing the most urgent of the measures without the explicit authorisation of the creditors, ruffled some feathers.
Those feathers belong to people who appear to me to favour life-threatening poverty in order that they can make a political point.
Greece then, as agreed, submitted a detailed list of proposals on 24 Feb, which lacked any credible detail for the creditors from whom they want another bucket load of money.
Since then the Greek governemnt have indulged themselves in a month of time wasting and last night agreed to submit a list of detailed reforms. I.E. 20 Mar sees us exactly where we were on 20 Feb!!!!! Before last night's meeting Greece was saying they were going to request a loan again!!!!!!
Life-threatening poverty - nice emotive words; however,.................
Hopefully Syrizia will wake up and smell the coffee now as their current course will make things far worse not better for the people of Greece in the short to medium term. They have tried to break up the Eurozone into the periphery and the North and they have failed - time for a Plan B.
Within the flawed mechanism known as the Euro sovreignity has to be directly proportionate to solvency and Syrizia needs to grow up and acknowledge this. They have to concentrate on a return to solvency measures and not continue with old fashioned political posturing and rhetoric at press conferences i.e. using words like humanitarian crisis and life-threatening poverty. Otherwise round in circles we will continue to go and the crisis for the Greek people gets steadily worse.
Let us hope they see sense! We should know soon.
Last edited by Garbatellamike; Mar 20th 2015 at 10:26 am.