Red Eric

Me?

I'm not evading anything. I've made over 200 posts on this thread - if you want to know what I think, read them.

I see the IMF is up to its usual tricks. Sign here to damage your economy or we'll damage it for you. Threatening them with Grexit. Again.

bigglesworth

There I am afraid I do disagree. IMO it was unconscionable for the IMF to participate in the Greek bailout in the first place. Period.
The IMF is broadly a vehicle for financial aid and reconstruction to the poorer areas of the world.

That a region that likes to boast of itself as the richest and strongest economic bloc on the planet should use development funds to rescue one of its own at the expense of the Third World shows a moral bankruptcy on the part of the EU (and the fragrant Lagarde) that is simply sickening. That lending was (and is) in breach of all the guidelines that are part of the Fund's lending criteria, even the new ones she forced the board to re-write.

She should be jailed, and the European Commission and Council should be put in the stocks, and barred from ever holding public office again.

bigglesworth

Sorry Eric. Got a but hot under the collar there.

But it does not change my view that Greece got a very bum deal.

Pulaski

Undoubtedly. The history of Europe is a sequence of events and consequences that goes back at least as far as the Roman empire.

Garbatellamike

Yes you - but never mind you are clearly going to continue to evade the question so I'll give up trying to get a straight answer out of you.

My take is the IMF is trying to do its best for the global economy and if Greece can't/won't reform then GREXIT might be its best way out of the current mess - there will be lots of blood on the carpet for sure but it might be best in the long run for both Greece and the wider global economy.

One thing is for sure the kick the can down the road approach is not going to last forever.

Red Eric

That's very over-polite of you - apologising for not disagreeing with me

I'm with you and having had the extreme displeasure of witnessing their methods at close quarters, I don't think the IMF have been of any help at all in any of the bailouts.

I also blame Merkel and Schauble amongst a number of others for their part in all of this and fervently hope that they are out of office later this year. If the EU's going to thrive, it needs a serious changing of the guard.

Pulaski

I agree with your thoughts, but the IMF bailout of Greece was not unprecedented - the IMF bailed out the UK under Chancellor of the Exchequer, Denis Healey, in 1976. Things lurched from bad to worse during that sad and sorry period, culminating in the Winter of Discontent in 1978-79, and a change of government in May 1979.

Red Eric

It should be patently obvious to absolutely everybody that it is not Greece's unwillingness to implement reforms which is the issue here. That is merely the excuse the creditors are using to cover up their own differences and to justify not having to change their approach - and for the exposure of that particular hypocrisy, we have Yanis Varoufakis to thank.

You should really consider a career with the IMF - they seem to like prescribing ever-stronger doses of the same medicine even though it has been shown beyond any shadow of a doubt not to work and even against the advice of serious economists (including their own).

As for Greece leaving or being kicked out of either the Eurozone or the EU, that is the very last thing the EU or the rest of the world needs right now. This is the time when the EU needs to be at its strongest and most cohesive.

bigglesworth

Very true, but 1976 did provoke enormous anger throughout the world.
In order to avoid a repetition, the IMF adopted limits on the amount any nation could borrow. Broadly a multiple of their SDRs (which are determined by the size of the economy).
Ms Lagarde (her presidential ambitions intact at the time) over rode the objections of the board, and loaned about 80 percent of the Funds entire resources for the year. She then forced through a rewrite of the rules (been rewritten twice since as well) but even this still left the IMF advancing nearly ten times the permitted maximum.
The reason the IMF is blowing cold is that the board is waking up to the danger she poses to the global system, and finally standing up to her.

bigglesworth

Indeed. And we live with those consequences now.

Garbatellamike

nice one you actually have tears in my eyes and my ribs are hurting

It's not the issue matey it's a myriad of issues one of which is Greece's unwillingness to implement reforms - that is the most obvious thing there can be. There are loads of issues some of which you have previously mentioned your self.

With your overly simplistic view of the difficulties it is no wonder you think Saint Yannis the Faker is a genius.

Garbatellamike

Yes indeed! And as Eric pointed out earlier- Britain was regarded as the sick man of Europe, before that 1979 election changed things for the better.

Pulaski

The Ottoman empire (which included the entire Balkan peninsula, including Greece) was known as "the sick man of Europe" in the mid 1800's, which I learned from reading the book on the Crimean War that I recommended above.

Pulaski

The austerity measures are pretty much required as a direct result of the single currency!

Assuming that the European Onion and the IMF don't want to pour billions upon billions of euros into the Greek money pit year after year, the ONLY solution likely to allow Greece to recover is for Greece to have it's own free-floating currency which it can devalue to regain some sort of stability.

I have no doubt that historians will say that, after the absurd decision to allow Greece to join the euro, the next worst decision was to allow/compel Greece to remain in the euro after 2010. The past seven years have wreaked economic havoc on Greece and the Greeks, and done nothing but delay the recovery they so desperately need.

bigglesworth

Absolutely.

They have figuratively been the heads on the spikes to frighten the other members.
Had they been allowed to leave, they would be well on the road to recovery by now