Hornets_Nest

This is quite worrying:

Theresa May accused of treating EU migrants as a pawn in Brexit talks | Politics | The Guardian

BritInParis

Quite the opposite if you're a British expat living on the continent. The government's position is that they won't be making any blanket guarantees about the future rights of EU citizens residing in the UK unless reciprocal rights are granted to British citizens living elsewhere in the EU. Since the EU has already stated it is not willing to hold any informal negotiations until Article 50 is triggered then it's the only reasonable stance to take until the UK has a new Prime Minister.

Assanah

The only reasonable stance? Well, the German government is discussing to introduce a fast-track process for Birtish citizens in Germany to get dual citizenship. So what are Germans then? Idiots? Just because they don't want to use people living and working in their country as pawns?
Considering that the vast majority of the British do not want to use the EU citizens as pawns I say that this announcement just shows how weak and vulnerable the British position really is.

BritInParis

Discussion is one thing but until they actually make a formal offer during negotiations then it's so much hot air. Given it takes eight years residence in Germany at the moment to qualify for naturalisation I wouldn't hold my breath. Even if that did come to pass it would be Germany acting unilaterally so it doesn't help British citizens resident in the other 26 member states.

It's the EU's decision not to have any informal talks before the UK triggers Article 50 so why would the UK give any concessions now when the EU is not willing to? If we did so then that would show how weak the UK was.

SpudandMrJingles

I live in Germany, and unfortunately only since last year. We bought our house here 10 years ago, but following redundancy last year we moved here and started work as freelance English teachers.

We are now in a state of flux, and high anxiety, as we are 51 and 55, and we have moved all our possessions over here to Germany yet looking at the rules for a "third country status" - which is what England will become following the exit - it looks as though we will have to have a work permit, and a work permit to work requires a contract. As freelance/self employed teachers this isnt going to happen.

I've written to both my previous MP and the MEPs, along with everyone else I can think of to try and get something in writing. I live in hope of either another referendum, a vote by UK Parliament, or not triggering the exit clause.

I've suggested that the EU ought to offer one of the following:

Keep the current Freedom of Movement rules
Dual citizenship for all British Citizens currently abroad
Some kind of "EU passport" for British & EU citizens currently abroad which means that we can still travel and work as we are currently.

Quite honestly we couldn't afford to move back to the UK as the house we bought needed renovation, and as its in rural Germany probably wouldnt sell for the amount of money we've put into it.

I've pointed out in my emails (if they bother to read them) that they would have to pay for us to go back and ship all our possessions back again, along with provide us with housing and also benefits until we could find jobs.

I noticed that the German vice chancellor was suggesting that young people were given the opportunity to have dual citizenship, so I've written to him as well, suggesting that it would be unfair if he didn't give it to all British Citizens!

Perhaps we should all email as much as possible, as I feel as though we are the unheard voices, yet are potentially the people it will affect perhaps more than people in the UK.

BritInParis

Nothing has happened nor will it for at least two years. When it does happen it's very likely that you would retain the rights you have currently in Germany. It's something to be aware of but not overly concerned with.

Hornets_Nest

EU referendum: Would Brexit violate UK citizens' rights?

EU referendum: Would Brexit violate UK citizens' rights? - BBC News

Red Eric

It's not the rights acquired since moving to Portugal I'm worried about - I'm pretty sure those will be honoured.

It's the rights I retain as a UK citizen living in the EU - those the UK government currently has an obligation to honour - that I feel are in danger. Becoming a citizen of another EU state or a dual national isn't going to do anything to assist in that regard.

BritInParis

You don't stop being a British citizen when the UK leaves the EU. Which rights are you concerned about?

Red Eric

The reciprocal arrangements currently in place - for example, the way pensions are calculated if you have social security contributions in more than one EU country, the protection of pension increases, the arrangements vis-a-vis health service reciprocal charging. Those are things the UK is currently required to abide by which could go by the board and that will affect UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU.

BritInParis

The UK has similar reciprocal arrangements in place with other non-EEA countries and given the number of British pensioners resident in France and Spain I find it very unlikely that the current arrangement would not be included in any renegotiation package that the UK proposes.

angie_329

Indeed it does. Also I believe a large proportion of the British abroad are pensioners, (in comparison to EU citizens in the UK) hence the foreign direct investment their pension income injects into the local economy is not something those countries will want to lose.

Red Eric

Really? Do you think the UK government actually cares a jot about British pensioners resident outside the UK?

Which non-EEA countries does it have a similar arrangement with regarding years of social security contributions and pension entitlements? Or reciprocal recharging of healthcare costs for pensioners?

Glad you're confident - I'm certainly not. In fact I expect there'll probably be other stuff besides which may well come to pass, especially in the event of economic woes as a result of Brexit. The government was already proposing doing away with the personal allowance for non-residents, for example. At the time, the proposals appeared to include a safeguard clause about the amount of total income arising in the UK. Wouldn't surprise me to see that one back in favour sometime in the not too distant, possibly without the safeguard clause.

BritInParis

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-state-pension

Australia and New Zealand have reciprocal health agreements with the UK.

*shrugs* Move back to the UK then if it worries you that much. Or perhaps you could just wait to see what the arrangements before jumping off the deep end.

Red Eric

Nah - it doesn't worry me that much But some of this stuff could seriously affect the futures of many people living in the EU who had every right to regard the arrangements in place at the time of their move as binding and permanent. I think we have a right to feel a bit peeved.

I have very little faith that the incoming PM & cabinet, which, whoever they are, look like being much more hardline Tory than even the current incumbents, are going to be looking after our (ie Britons living elsewhere in the EU) best interests. They haven't even mentioned that angle so far. But yeah - all we can all do is wait and see.