GeniB

Not according to Eric

Red Eric

Geni - you may(?) remember being asked a question a few posts ago about what difference it would make to UK citizens living in the EU if the UK were to leave. Your response was that it might affect a)pensions and b)voting rights in general elections.


All I have done since then is to point out that voting rights of UK citizens living abroad are identical with regard to general elections whether they live in the EU or elsewhere in the world and that therefore the UK leaving the EU would have no effect on this matter whatsoever.


You insist on turning that first into "Eric thinks voting is irrelevant" and now into "Eric thinks leaving the EU would have no effect on UK citizens living there"


I've no objection to you or anybody else disagreeing with anything I post but I draw the line when it comes to such gross misrepresentation of what I have said.

GeniB

All I have done since then is to point out that voting rights of UK citizens living abroad are identical with regard to general elections whether they live in the EU or elsewhere in the world and that therefore the UK leaving the EU would have no effect on this matter whatsoever.


Eric I understand where you are coming from ! Voting rights for ex-pats around the world who have lived abroad for longer than 15 yrs are indeed identical! I don't think I have ever disputed that in any of my posts ?

However my concern,and those of many Ex-pats in the EU countries is that leaving the EU would give the UK Government a greater opportunity shall we say to make certain changes that would be inline with most of those 'other countries' that are traditionally considered places to emigrate to i.e. on pensions. It would also help them in continuing to retain this 'arbitrary law(amended in 2001 to 15yrs from 20 yrs) to disenfranchise us from having a vote-anywhere. I am speaking as someone who made a decision to live and work in the EU (like millions of others) NOT to emigrate in the usual sense of the word, but solely because we (UK) had made the decision as a country to join in this Union.It has given us certain rights and privileges, to be treated the same,to have cross border agreements on health and tax etc etc.My concern is simple that we (5million of us) are now left out of this important stage of that decision.Some, as I have said ,have been allowed in to vote? quite bizarrely imo . and without any explanation from the Government.This is not a General Election we are talking about here.This is the Referendum only

If I implied anything else ,or misunderstood where you were coming from I do apologise. I think I can't make my view(s) any plainer than I have so will say no more on the subject.As most have pointed out ,they think any protest at all is useless .

Red Eric

Righto then - I'm glad we've got that cleared up.

Perhaps we can now move on to this:
Some, as I have said ,have been allowed in to vote? quite bizarrely imo . and without any explanation from the Government.This is not a General Election we are talking about here.This is the Referendum only.

which you earlier posted as
Like.um Gibraltar and Malta and NI.( were these people eligible to vote in the last election then? news to me)

I'm pleased to be the herald of news, which is that although Gibraltar appears to have been made an exception of, the others are as per UK general elections. Northern Ireland does indeed take part in those, to the extent that it elects 18 MPs to Westminster. And Maltese (and Cypriot) nationals resident in the United Kingdom get votes in UK general elections because they are members of the Commonwealth, whereas most of the other member states of the EU are not. Maltese and Cypriots resident in Malta and Cyprus do not, of course, get a vote either in general elections in the UK nor will they in the upcoming referendum.

bigglesworth

Geni it is not that people think protest is useless as you put it. It is rather that nobody can work out what you are protesting about.

When the then Government tried to remove ALL expatriate voting rights in the late 1990s, the Conservative party committed to restoring them. This they repeated in the run up to the 2015 election, put it in their manifesto and now have included it in the Queens Speech. Even if the other parties unite in opposition, it WILL become law during this Parliament, barring by-elections etc. Continually suggesting that this Government wishes to reduce or remove the voting rights of British expatriates is simply untrue.

Voting in a referendum is a separate issue, and has not to the best of my knowledge been raised by any party. NI is part of the UK, and therefore will be able to vote as will Scotland and Wales. Malta and Gibraltar are Crown Dependencies as well as members of the EU in their own right. I doubt very much that the Government saw the need to explain this as it is all pretty self evident.

Had Mr Cameron undertaken to extend the referendum to UK citizens living in the EU (2 million by the way, not 5 million), not only would he have handed a campaigning advantage to UKIP (which I assume you would not want) but the European Commission were very clear that if he extended the franchise to Brits living in other EU countries he must also extend it to other EU citizens living in Britain. He would also then have had to overcome the opposition of just about every other European leader, none of whom wish to enfranchise expatriates in national elections , which would seriously hamper his negotiations to keep Britain in. You seem to believe Mr Cameron wants an “out” vote. You must be the only person on the planet to believe that.

As a matter of law Britain did not decide to join the European Union, but the Common Market, which later became the European Economic Community, then the European Community. The Union did not even exist until the 1990s, and this referendum would be the embodiment of that decision – a decision that IMO Mr Cameron fully intends to win.

The tax agreements are dual or double tax agreements, were negotiated under the GATT and are negotiated country by country. They have little to do with the EU, although they have tended to be harmonised, so would not be affected by membership of the EU.

Healthcare could be an issue, but as you have lived and worked in other European countries, rather than Britain, that is surely their (and your) concern rather than Britain’s? That you choose to call this “not to emigrate” is not a view that would be shared by many.

I have never heard anybody suggest that annual increases in UK State pensions within Europe might be reduced, except as an argument as to why State pensions which are not uprated, should be. (Although there is of course a serious question as to whether Britain should be paying a State Pension at all to those who have chosen to work, save and live in another country). It is however unrelated to membership of the EU, but is paid as part of social security agreements that have been negotiated. In most cases these are on a country by country basis, but in most European nations it is by virtue of Britain’s membership of the EEA.

GeniB

[QUOTE=bigglesworth;11747144]Geni it is not that people think protest is useless as you put it. It is rather that nobody can work out what you are protesting about.


I think it's kinda pointless to go over every sentence Biggles. Given that I KNOW all of the above. It's clear to me that you have also misunderstood in so many areas ! what I am protesting about!!I'll address just the one important one as I am losing the will to live here

i.e. The Government has declared it will re-instate voting rights to all Brits living abroad-sometime in the future? maybe never.? BUT crucially not in time for the Referendum.-whichgodhelpme (if I believed in a god) Was the whole point of this post.

and that is the LAST word on the subject from me .Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.

amideislas

It is nothing less than a ridiculous, baseless, sensationalist notion that British expats will somehow be "kicked out" of the EU should Britain leave.

Such an action would have no foundation or merit, and would benefit nobody, including the EU member state where you reside. Things like pensions and healthcare and taxes would be worked out with reciprocal agreements, not to mention trade would continue as usual, so you also wouldn't lose your job, if you have one.

Don't be fooled by the rhetoric. There is no benefit to any involved in singling out Brits to pick on. Sensationalism at its best. I reckon Labour will be making up and spreading all kinds of ridiculous rumours of impending disaster. But that's to be expected. Nothing new there.

BritInParis

There's no guarantee of either scenario. As no member state has ever left the EU/EEA we would be in uncharted territory. Since reciprocal agreements require both parties to partake I can't see Britons being able to live and work in the EU/EEA without restriction unless the same concession was offered to other EU/EEA citizens coming to the UK. Given that unrestricted EU/EEA migration to the UK is the primary motivator for the 'No/Leave' I can't see that happening either.

amideislas

Not at all uncharted. Many many non-EU citizens live and work in the EU. Americans, Canadians, south Americans, Asians....

What, might I ask, would be the point of singling out British nationals? Because a few eurocrats are irritated? That's just not a good enough reason. And if it were, then that would be a good reason to leave in itself.

Look, the UK is not part of the EU economy. It has a different economic and political system, and will never have the same influence as those who are, unless of course, it submits to becoming another dependent on Frankfurt, and gives up London as an economic competitor.

The UK will eventually be forced to decide anyway. Either IN, and hand London's financial centre to Frankfurt and adopt the Euro, or be out, and enjoy an open free trade agreement. That is what it will ultimately come to.

But none of that has much to do with its EU membership, nor would it change much if it weren't a full member (and frankly, it isn't really a "full" member with equal influence now, so what's the difference?). Unless, of course, labour wins in the next election, which could very well result in the UK becoming another dependent province of the EU, as virtually all other members are now. Which direction do you think is more likely?

Please... This is nothing more than sensationalist rhetoric. Keep your eye on the ball, and forget the sensationalist rhetoric. Regardless of the outcome of the referendum, the UK will ultimately be faced with this anyway. Although it may be called a referendum on adopting the euro, but it will effectively be another in/out referendum.

Red Eric

It's very early days yet for the new Labour leadership but nevertheless they already seem to have formulated an initial stance on the matter, which is that they'll wait to see what it is that Cameron comes back from his negotiations with before deciding whether to support or reject that package.


Seems a pretty sound position to take, to me.

Garbatellamike

Yep

bigglesworth

Seems good to me too.

The only trouble is so far they do not seem to have agreed on anything at all. Rats in sacks.

mikelincs

That will only happen IF the Government introduce a bill and IF the bill passes all it's phases in the two houses. Just because it is in the Queen's speech DOESN'T mean it will becaome law. Parliamentary protocol HAS to be followed. There are conservative rebels prepared to vote againt the government on the tax credit proposals, and who is to say that there will be some that vote againsy other bills.

Jeffos

Hi all,

My tuppence worth.

I can`t see what harm it can cause lobbying any British embassy with your views on the in/out ref. The ambassadors speak with the PM, and other ministers, and who can tell how important any of your views on the referendum could be. The exercise could well prove to be a complete waste of time, if you`re willing to "waste" your own time on an email, then do it. You never know.......

One more thing, and I hope it`s not considered too off topic. I`m an Englishman living and working in England driving HGV 1. I constantly come into contact with people I don`t know and I try to gauge people`s opinions on the in/out ref. I am sorry to say I have yet to hear a single Englishman/woman say they`ll vote to stay in with Border security being the top most reason to vote out, followed by jobs. Personally, I think many English are simply Europhobes. In the past I lived in Greece for 4 years and that was all because of being in the EU. A great experience, to be sure. The EU is still in it`s infancy, bringing together some fairly diverse cultures was always bound to develop problems of various kinds. The EU needs working on, how could such a project not need effort ? Britain should not quit now.
As for border security, I fail to see how leaving the EU will change anything in that regard, it`s not eastern Europeans that are blowing themselves up. For many years now Britain has had high levels of immigration which up until more recently, had nothing to do with being a member of the EU.
As for the eastern European economic migrants, I absolutely guarantee, with first hand experience of the transport industry, that without them the reports on Britain`s economy would look very different. A good 50% of HGV 1 drivers driving British trucks on British roads are foreign, with Polish being the main, and perhaps the Romanians coming in in second place.
For those of you who think Romanians are nothing more than thieves I have this to say. How many thieves has Britain spawned all on it`s own ? All countries have thieves. The Romanians are an industrious people and with the chance, given to them by the EU, to go out and work, to earn their living`s and to improve their lot`s in life, I suspect there will be less and less Romanian thieves as the years go by.
Britain`s future is and always will be with Europe, they are our neighbours, that fact will never change. Britain remaining in the EU gives Britain the chance to influence all kinds of policies and so on, leaving the EU takes away that ability.

I strongly believe that leaving the EU will weaken Britain, both culturally and economically.

Thank you for reading

Garbatellamike

in fairness we Brits are quite capable of doing both of the above regardless of whether we are in the EU or not - just saying