What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Oct 27th 2014, 8:22 pm
#46
Home and Happy
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Keep true friends and puppets close, trust no-one else...
Posts: 93,814
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Now Pupils,Teacher is not going to have any further discussion with you on this subject
until you all go on line and read the 36 page Opinion Of Advocate General SZPUNAR
delivered on the 20th May 2014 Case C202/13.This is your home work for the next 5 Days.
I will then take any questions and give you any explanations you want,provided I am convinced you seriously want to know the EU Law on Free Movement and can demonstrate you read the Opinion.
Now all you other BAR ROOM Lawyer's can continue in your world of darkness and then go
to the Bulls Head Pub and expound your brilliance to all the UKIP supporters,they will love
you.
until you all go on line and read the 36 page Opinion Of Advocate General SZPUNAR
delivered on the 20th May 2014 Case C202/13.This is your home work for the next 5 Days.
I will then take any questions and give you any explanations you want,provided I am convinced you seriously want to know the EU Law on Free Movement and can demonstrate you read the Opinion.
Now all you other BAR ROOM Lawyer's can continue in your world of darkness and then go
to the Bulls Head Pub and expound your brilliance to all the UKIP supporters,they will love
you.
Oct 27th 2014, 8:23 pm
#47
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 31
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Noe2old.Thanks for your logical and constructive comments,it is my pleasure to explain
to you the situation. I was part of the team involved in case c-202/13,in both the HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE QUEENS BENCH DIVISION ADMINISTRATIVE COURT for two days debating this issue and also at the GRAND CHAMBER CJEU on the 4th March 2014.
As I have previously stated the SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME OFFICE,told the
court on the second day that she was laying a new Bill before the House of Commons
amending the Transposition of Directive EU 38 to make the Family Residence Cards issued
by Germany and Estonia as equal to the UK Family Permit.This new amendment was
passed by the House of Commons and came into UK Law on April 2014.As a result all
holders of cards issued by these two countries are exempt from the Family Permit obligation.
For the first time in the history of the CJEU the UK sent the Attorney General Dominic
Grieves to represent the Uk.He told the court that the Cabinet were taking a very
close interest in this case as it had raised issues and points of new never before
considered by the UK or the CJEU.I personally spoke to Mr Grieves before and after the hearing. I am privy to a lot of information i cannot discuss here,I can only comment
on what is current available to the general public.
It's pointless in discussing the points until you have read and studied the 36 page Opinion
which will answer all of your questions and many more you may never have thought of.
to you the situation. I was part of the team involved in case c-202/13,in both the HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE QUEENS BENCH DIVISION ADMINISTRATIVE COURT for two days debating this issue and also at the GRAND CHAMBER CJEU on the 4th March 2014.
As I have previously stated the SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME OFFICE,told the
court on the second day that she was laying a new Bill before the House of Commons
amending the Transposition of Directive EU 38 to make the Family Residence Cards issued
by Germany and Estonia as equal to the UK Family Permit.This new amendment was
passed by the House of Commons and came into UK Law on April 2014.As a result all
holders of cards issued by these two countries are exempt from the Family Permit obligation.
For the first time in the history of the CJEU the UK sent the Attorney General Dominic
Grieves to represent the Uk.He told the court that the Cabinet were taking a very
close interest in this case as it had raised issues and points of new never before
considered by the UK or the CJEU.I personally spoke to Mr Grieves before and after the hearing. I am privy to a lot of information i cannot discuss here,I can only comment
on what is current available to the general public.
It's pointless in discussing the points until you have read and studied the 36 page Opinion
which will answer all of your questions and many more you may never have thought of.
Oct 27th 2014, 8:27 pm
#48
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 37
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
"Any letters or statements from UKBA are of now importance if they do not comply with EU law".
What a crass statement.. Try telling that to the many EEA spouses that have failed in their attempt to obtain a Family Permit BECAUSE the UK don't comply with EU law. Their written refusals tell a much different story.
You havn't satisfied "Center of Life"
You are trying to circumvent UK immigration laws.
You don't have sufficient funds.
All of course are illegal... But what can they do ?..... an appeal takes many months and is costly.
Easier to re-apply after a month (its free).
I'm not saying its right.. but thats the way it is... and the UK continue to get away with it.
What a crass statement.. Try telling that to the many EEA spouses that have failed in their attempt to obtain a Family Permit BECAUSE the UK don't comply with EU law. Their written refusals tell a much different story.
You havn't satisfied "Center of Life"
You are trying to circumvent UK immigration laws.
You don't have sufficient funds.
All of course are illegal... But what can they do ?..... an appeal takes many months and is costly.
Easier to re-apply after a month (its free).
I'm not saying its right.. but thats the way it is... and the UK continue to get away with it.
Oct 27th 2014, 8:31 pm
#49
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 31
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Brit In Paris,you are correct in what you say up to a point.This case I feel will redefine
the SS Judgement.As you so rightly say we have to wait for the Full Judgement which
should be sometime in December or January 2014.If you look at the current calendar for
the CJEU which covers up until the 26th November 2014,it is not listed for Judgement.
You should take time to read the Opinion as it is a very technical case and I think with
your analytical mind you will really get into it.I like you posts,keep them coming.
the SS Judgement.As you so rightly say we have to wait for the Full Judgement which
should be sometime in December or January 2014.If you look at the current calendar for
the CJEU which covers up until the 26th November 2014,it is not listed for Judgement.
You should take time to read the Opinion as it is a very technical case and I think with
your analytical mind you will really get into it.I like you posts,keep them coming.
Oct 27th 2014, 8:43 pm
#50
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 31
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Pampered,you are correct that the UK is acting unlawfully.Everything you have suffered
as a result of this unlawful behaviour is now before the Grand Chamber CJEU and we
expect a favourable ruling before the next month or so.Please go on line and read
the 36 page OPINION OF ADVOCATE GENERAL SZPUNAR delivered on the 20th May 2013.
Just Google: Case C202/13 and it will take you to the revenant page.This case is the biggest case against the UK on Freedom of Movement ever.you must take your time and study what he has to say on all of the issues raised.
as a result of this unlawful behaviour is now before the Grand Chamber CJEU and we
expect a favourable ruling before the next month or so.Please go on line and read
the 36 page OPINION OF ADVOCATE GENERAL SZPUNAR delivered on the 20th May 2013.
Just Google: Case C202/13 and it will take you to the revenant page.This case is the biggest case against the UK on Freedom of Movement ever.you must take your time and study what he has to say on all of the issues raised.
Oct 27th 2014, 10:35 pm
#51
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 31
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
The most common reasons for a Family Permit refusal seem to be.
1.. That you havn't moved the center of your life to your host country.
2.. That you have used the "Freedom of movement Directive to circumvent the UK immigration laws.
Both these resons are illigal but that dosn't stop a UKVI caseworker from using them.
You have been in Germany for 10 months and working all that time and your wife has 5 years residency... More than enough time in your host country to return to UK under Singh.
The advice that you've been given is sound.. apply for a family permit. Its free of charge and you can apply as many times as you like.
1.. That you havn't moved the center of your life to your host country.
2.. That you have used the "Freedom of movement Directive to circumvent the UK immigration laws.
Both these resons are illigal but that dosn't stop a UKVI caseworker from using them.
You have been in Germany for 10 months and working all that time and your wife has 5 years residency... More than enough time in your host country to return to UK under Singh.
The advice that you've been given is sound.. apply for a family permit. Its free of charge and you can apply as many times as you like.
The advice is totally incorrect as they are in possession of an EEU Family Residence Card issued under EU Directive 38 Article 10 by Germany which is accepted by UKBA since April 2014 as equal to a UK issued Family Permit.
Why should they apply for something that they have already got?.
Oct 27th 2014, 11:29 pm
#52
Dichotomus tinker
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,678
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
The advice is totally incorrect as they are in possession of an EEU Family Residence Card issued under EU Directive 38 Article 10 by Germany which is accepted by UKBA since April 2014 as equal to a UK issued Family Permit. Why should they apply for something that they have already got?.
I agree with posts #48 & #45
and we covered this point here in post #41
respect your opinion, however from a letter correspondence with an EC case worker to the matter above...
response dated May 2014, seems the UK as usual ignore & do as they wish
copy (C&P) of the correspondence reply.. 'dont shoot the messenger'
German and Estonian residence cards are now allowed under the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 [as amended] (“the Regulations”), but only where the Regulations specifically state they can be provided. The parts of the Regulations that deal with the family members of British citizens are regulations 9 and 15A(4A); these parts of the Regulations are unaffected by the change regarding German and Estonian ID cards.
The Immigration Rules remain unaffected by the change.
Therefore, the family member of a British citizen must either obtain entry clearance in the usual manner or would be advised to obtain an EEA Family Permit to confirm that they were the family member of a British citizen exercising free movement rights in another EEA member state before attempting to enter the UK under the EEA route.
I hope this helps.
Kind regards,
European Operational Policy Team
response dated May 2014, seems the UK as usual ignore & do as they wish
copy (C&P) of the correspondence reply.. 'dont shoot the messenger'
German and Estonian residence cards are now allowed under the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 [as amended] (“the Regulations”), but only where the Regulations specifically state they can be provided. The parts of the Regulations that deal with the family members of British citizens are regulations 9 and 15A(4A); these parts of the Regulations are unaffected by the change regarding German and Estonian ID cards.
The Immigration Rules remain unaffected by the change.
Therefore, the family member of a British citizen must either obtain entry clearance in the usual manner or would be advised to obtain an EEA Family Permit to confirm that they were the family member of a British citizen exercising free movement rights in another EEA member state before attempting to enter the UK under the EEA route.
I hope this helps.
Kind regards,
European Operational Policy Team
Last edited by not2old; Oct 27th 2014 at 11:34 pm.
Oct 28th 2014, 12:15 am
#53
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 31
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Not2old.I suggest you read the amended legalisation which came into force in April 2014
as this is the current law.The letter you are relying on,is simply the erroneous opinion
of the UKBA. I know at least 10 people who have already benefited from the new legislation. The card holders of these two countries are now in compliance with the
"Carrier Liability Regulation Act",again I know of at least 100 people who have travelled to the UK under the new regulations as the carriers now accept these two cards and UKBA
also do not stamp these peoples passports or demand that they fill in landing cards.
These are the verifiable facts and if you don't want to accept what I am telling you
simply read the new regulations and it will confirm what I am telling you is correct.
All other cards from the other member states still have to have a UK issued Family
Permit before they are allowed to board any carrier to travel to the UK and on arrival
they have to fill in a landing card and have their passport stamped.
as this is the current law.The letter you are relying on,is simply the erroneous opinion
of the UKBA. I know at least 10 people who have already benefited from the new legislation. The card holders of these two countries are now in compliance with the
"Carrier Liability Regulation Act",again I know of at least 100 people who have travelled to the UK under the new regulations as the carriers now accept these two cards and UKBA
also do not stamp these peoples passports or demand that they fill in landing cards.
These are the verifiable facts and if you don't want to accept what I am telling you
simply read the new regulations and it will confirm what I am telling you is correct.
All other cards from the other member states still have to have a UK issued Family
Permit before they are allowed to board any carrier to travel to the UK and on arrival
they have to fill in a landing card and have their passport stamped.
Oct 28th 2014, 10:16 am
#54
Dichotomus tinker
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,678
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Gullane @ post# 53
posted before, the UKBA are the law in the UK & say 'stuff whatever the EC rules are' - this does not help those entering the UK only to be turned away.
I know this is useless posting this - just for you, read the 27 pages in the link
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...intOct2012.pdf
extract
Is UK handling of EEA Family Permit visas still a problem? | freedom of movement in the EU
posted before, the UKBA are the law in the UK & say 'stuff whatever the EC rules are' - this does not help those entering the UK only to be turned away.
I know this is useless posting this - just for you, read the 27 pages in the link
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...intOct2012.pdf
extract
Is UK handling of EEA Family Permit visas still a problem? | freedom of movement in the EU
Oct 28th 2014, 10:32 am
#55
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Location: Cheshire East
Posts: 588
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
There's a saying that goes something like:
"never argue with a fool; it's difficult for observers to tell the difference".
Not2old - your post on another thread is spot on; the rest of us just need to stop responding. This is definitely my LAST post on any thread inhabited by this particular troll.
"never argue with a fool; it's difficult for observers to tell the difference".
Not2old - your post on another thread is spot on; the rest of us just need to stop responding. This is definitely my LAST post on any thread inhabited by this particular troll.
Oct 28th 2014, 12:19 pm
#56
Under blue skies
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: East Anglia->New England
Posts: 3,624
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Sorry about that,I should have read my reply and seen that i gave 12 instead of 13.in short google CJEU case202/13 it is McCarthy V Secretary of State.This is the most important challenge the UK has ever faced in relation to Freedom of Movement,these are
not my words but what The Attorney General Dominic Grieves told the 17 Judges at the
Grand Chamber Luxembourg on the 4th March 2014 and all decisions are being made at cabinet level.You can read the Advocate General Opinion on line as it runs into 32 pages.I will give you the case references to the Private Medical Insurance Rulings later.
not my words but what The Attorney General Dominic Grieves told the 17 Judges at the
Grand Chamber Luxembourg on the 4th March 2014 and all decisions are being made at cabinet level.You can read the Advocate General Opinion on line as it runs into 32 pages.I will give you the case references to the Private Medical Insurance Rulings later.
Can all of you people who disagree with what I have posted,please go on line and read
the full opinion of the Advocate General on CJEU Case-C202/13.You will then see clearly
what the UK submitted on writing and what they said in there oral presentation.I am trying to educate you people with factual Case Law but you simply refuse to listen.What UKBA
say is simply what they want people to do and not what they are lawfully entitled.So please go and read the opinion before you make statements on the basis of what you think and not what you know as fact.Any letters or statements from UKBA are of now importance if they do not comply with EU law.
the full opinion of the Advocate General on CJEU Case-C202/13.You will then see clearly
what the UK submitted on writing and what they said in there oral presentation.I am trying to educate you people with factual Case Law but you simply refuse to listen.What UKBA
say is simply what they want people to do and not what they are lawfully entitled.So please go and read the opinion before you make statements on the basis of what you think and not what you know as fact.Any letters or statements from UKBA are of now importance if they do not comply with EU law.
Now Pupils,Teacher is not going to have any further discussion with you on this subject
until you all go on line and read the 36 page Opinion Of Advocate General SZPUNAR
delivered on the 20th May 2014 Case C202/13.This is your home work for the next 5 Days.
I will then take any questions and give you any explanations you want,provided I am convinced you seriously want to know the EU Law on Free Movement and can demonstrate you read the Opinion.
Now all you other BAR ROOM Lawyer's can continue in your world of darkness and then go
to the Bulls Head Pub and expound your brilliance to all the UKIP supporters,they will love
you.
until you all go on line and read the 36 page Opinion Of Advocate General SZPUNAR
delivered on the 20th May 2014 Case C202/13.This is your home work for the next 5 Days.
I will then take any questions and give you any explanations you want,provided I am convinced you seriously want to know the EU Law on Free Movement and can demonstrate you read the Opinion.
Now all you other BAR ROOM Lawyer's can continue in your world of darkness and then go
to the Bulls Head Pub and expound your brilliance to all the UKIP supporters,they will love
you.
The fact that you refuse to provide concrete proof leads one to the inevitable conclusion that you have no proof at this point in time. Like the rest of us interested in any changes in the rules, you must wait for the judgment...and then see how the Home Office implements it.
Not2old.I suggest you read the amended legalisation which came into force in April 2014
as this is the current law.The letter you are relying on,is simply the erroneous opinion
of the UKBA. I know at least 10 people who have already benefited from the new legislation. The card holders of these two countries are now in compliance with the
"Carrier Liability Regulation Act",again I know of at least 100 people who have travelled to the UK under the new regulations as the carriers now accept these two cards and UKBA
also do not stamp these peoples passports or demand that they fill in landing cards.
These are the verifiable facts and if you don't want to accept what I am telling you
simply read the new regulations and it will confirm what I am telling you is correct.All other cards from the other member states still have to have a UK issued Family
Permit before they are allowed to board any carrier to travel to the UK and on arrival
they have to fill in a landing card and have their passport stamped.
as this is the current law.The letter you are relying on,is simply the erroneous opinion
of the UKBA. I know at least 10 people who have already benefited from the new legislation. The card holders of these two countries are now in compliance with the
"Carrier Liability Regulation Act",again I know of at least 100 people who have travelled to the UK under the new regulations as the carriers now accept these two cards and UKBA
also do not stamp these peoples passports or demand that they fill in landing cards.
These are the verifiable facts and if you don't want to accept what I am telling you
simply read the new regulations and it will confirm what I am telling you is correct.All other cards from the other member states still have to have a UK issued Family
Permit before they are allowed to board any carrier to travel to the UK and on arrival
they have to fill in a landing card and have their passport stamped.
One fears that your behavior on this board--projecting the image of a self-proclaimed expert with special insider knowledge of big changes coming in immigration rules--is part of a cynical agenda.
Your aim seems not so much to advise in a a useful fashion someone like the OP who truly needs help--which is after all the purpose of this board--but on the contrary to perhaps attract potential clients who will be lured by your boasts of legal prowess into thinking you have some extraordinary powers of insight that will benefit them and their non-EEA partners in their attempt to return home to the UK to live....
Last edited by WEBlue; Oct 28th 2014 at 12:23 pm.
Oct 28th 2014, 12:29 pm
#57
Home and Happy
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Keep true friends and puppets close, trust no-one else...
Posts: 93,814
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Was this a promise to give an actual link??? That would actually answer the question of the OP who started this thread?
Unfortunately for many, letters and statements of UKBA do indeed still hold for all Surinder Singh Route applicants for permanent residence. You have not provided a single iota of hard evidence to the contrary, and outright refuse to provide links to any case you say you "argued". How are we supposed to believe you are any kind of expert on what is happening in immigration?
None of us have claimed to be bar room lawyers (or indeed any kind of legal expert). That's why we have asked for links to back up your own so-called "expert opinion"--but only an 'opinion' nonetheless--that this case you say you were involved with is important to those on the Surinder Singh pathway.
The fact that you refuse to provide concrete proof leads one to the inevitable conclusion that you have no proof at this point in time. Like the rest of us interested in any changes in the rules, you must wait for the judgment...and then see how the Home Office implements it.
Link to these new regulations??
One fears that your behavior on this board--projecting the image of a self-proclaimed expert with special insider knowledge of big changes coming in immigration rules--is part of a cynical agenda.
Your aim seems not so much to advise in a a useful fashion someone like the OP who truly needs help--which is after all the purpose of this board--but on the contrary to perhaps attract potential clients who will be lured by your boasts of legal prowess into thinking you have some extraordinary powers of insight that will benefit them and their non-EEA partners in their attempt to return home to the UK to live....
Unfortunately for many, letters and statements of UKBA do indeed still hold for all Surinder Singh Route applicants for permanent residence. You have not provided a single iota of hard evidence to the contrary, and outright refuse to provide links to any case you say you "argued". How are we supposed to believe you are any kind of expert on what is happening in immigration?
None of us have claimed to be bar room lawyers (or indeed any kind of legal expert). That's why we have asked for links to back up your own so-called "expert opinion"--but only an 'opinion' nonetheless--that this case you say you were involved with is important to those on the Surinder Singh pathway.
The fact that you refuse to provide concrete proof leads one to the inevitable conclusion that you have no proof at this point in time. Like the rest of us interested in any changes in the rules, you must wait for the judgment...and then see how the Home Office implements it.
Link to these new regulations??
One fears that your behavior on this board--projecting the image of a self-proclaimed expert with special insider knowledge of big changes coming in immigration rules--is part of a cynical agenda.
Your aim seems not so much to advise in a a useful fashion someone like the OP who truly needs help--which is after all the purpose of this board--but on the contrary to perhaps attract potential clients who will be lured by your boasts of legal prowess into thinking you have some extraordinary powers of insight that will benefit them and their non-EEA partners in their attempt to return home to the UK to live....
I have to say his behaviour on here is such that if I did need migration help he is the very last person I would go to.
Oct 28th 2014, 1:08 pm
#58
Dichotomus tinker
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,678
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Should the said poster what a piss-up free for all 'mine is bigger than yours' - then we have some knowledgeable crusty old farts on here that can stand the course.
Makes me wonder if Gullane is a born & bred Brit, or is a British citizen & how long he has lived in the UK.... then again (not a wind up) do we really care?
I'm done with interacting posts with him & he has 'been sent to Coventry' (should I link that?)
Last edited by not2old; Oct 28th 2014 at 1:17 pm.
Oct 28th 2014, 4:49 pm
#59
Home and Happy
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Keep true friends and puppets close, trust no-one else...
Posts: 93,814
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
I've seen on BE many of our members have come forward to provide spot on help to the hundreds (maybe thousands) & more of members who have sort help on immigration or settlement matters. None of what that other poster has provided IMO has helped directly answer or help the OP's on the several threads questions or concerns.
Should the said poster what a piss-up free for all 'mine is bigger than yours' - then we have some knowledgeable crusty old farts on here that can stand the course.
Makes me wonder if Gullane is a born & bred Brit, or is a British citizen & how long he has lived in the UK.... then again (not a wind up) do we really care?
I'm done with interacting posts with him & he has 'been sent to Coventry' (should I link that?)
Should the said poster what a piss-up free for all 'mine is bigger than yours' - then we have some knowledgeable crusty old farts on here that can stand the course.
Makes me wonder if Gullane is a born & bred Brit, or is a British citizen & how long he has lived in the UK.... then again (not a wind up) do we really care?
I'm done with interacting posts with him & he has 'been sent to Coventry' (should I link that?)
Have to agree with you though, most of what has been posted by Gullane is confusing and/or misleading - or just plain wrong.
Last edited by Pollyana; Oct 28th 2014 at 4:53 pm.
Oct 29th 2014, 8:48 pm
#60
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: bute
Posts: 9,740
Re: What should I say at the entrance - Surinder Singh
Maybe Gullane could get a job with UKBA ?