Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Old Nov 2nd 2012, 7:53 am
  #1  
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
 
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 139
Nicola1 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Has anyone successfully done this?

From what I read it's risky at best, and the loophole could be removed at any time, where then would that leave families in the midst of a move? In limbo?

I'm not overly keen on trying this option as we have two small boys to consider as well.

Why, oh why is this process so difficult? What do you think are the pro's and con's of both?

In a nutshell, we've been together 10 years, married for 6, two little boys and my husband is South African (I'm British by birth).
Nicola1 is offline  
Old Nov 2nd 2012, 5:31 pm
  #2  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 837
englishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond reputeenglishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond reputeenglishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond reputeenglishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond reputeenglishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond reputeenglishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond reputeenglishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond reputeenglishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond reputeenglishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond reputeenglishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond reputeenglishguygoinghome has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

We have succesfully obtianed EEA family permits from both Germany and Switzerland over a period of 7 years. I am a BC, my wife is non-EU. The process was simple and painless in comparison to all of the other visa types we have applied for both before and after. We did notice the changes as visa pplications were outsourced and consulate employees were strictly told not to have contact with applicants and then as the biometrics came in but the processing was always within a week, the paperwork simple and the costs limited to courier charges only.
It's the same permit for visits and relocation and each one is valid for 6 months so assuming you'd get one for visits as soon as you arrived in the EU then you may not need to reapply if you did decide to later relocate to the UK.

As far as paperwork was concerned we needed to provide:
- proof that we were legally resident (both countries required you to register with the authorities) [this needs to be dated within the last 2-4 weeks]
- proof we were married
- proof I was economically active (eg a certificate from the tax office that I had registered myself as self-employed)

There are a lot of people who will say that you need to be in the EU country for 6 months before you can get a permit, not sure on the exact status of that - it's certinaly not written in the rules.

The next part if pure speculation, as is any other answer you get regarding the route being closed. Personally I don't see that happening.

To close the route the UK would have to back out of the EU freedom of movement, this is so core to the Union that it would probably require us to leave the EU AND also leave the EEA (EU plus Norway, Iceland, Leichtenstein, Switzerland). In my opinion that is unlikely to happenw ithout over 12 months warning.

Or the EU courts would have to rule that the right to freedom of movement was not applicable to the nationals of one country moving back to that country. Again I think it is unlikely. Yes they did just rule that you cannot live in the UK for all your life (never move to Ireland or elsewehere in the EU), claim dual citizenship UK / Ireland and then apply EU freedom of movement to marry a foreigner. On the other hand they have also recently suggested that the freedom of movement is a personal right and not a treaty right so should be more widely applied (I posted a link to something related to this on the sticky thread about a month ago, I think). Either way I don't see them shutting down S Singh just yet.

There is, however always the chance that the UKBA would reject your application either for the family permit or once in the UK for residency. Then you'd have a legal battle on your hands.

If we were stuck and needed to come back we'd use Singh via Germany as we've been there before and could likely get everything done in 2-3 weeks given the practice we have. That's just a personal opinion though.
englishguygoinghome is offline  
Old Nov 2nd 2012, 5:52 pm
  #3  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,396
roaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Originally Posted by englishguygoinghome View Post
There is, however always the chance that the UKBA would reject your application either for the family permit or once in the UK for residency. Then you'd have a legal battle on your hands.
If applying under EEA rules, and requirements are met as per the "Surinder Singh" route then the UKBA cannot reject the application - they have no ability to do this because treaty rights are being exercised.

This route is not a loophole, it's a perfectly legal route that has been tested in court. I agree that the only way it can be removed is by the UK leaving the EU (and possibly the EEA too) and there would be plenty of notice before it happens after the decision is made (if this does happen at all).
roaringmouse is offline  
Old Nov 3rd 2012, 1:35 am
  #4  
JAJ
Retired
 
JAJ's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
JAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Originally Posted by roaringmouse View Post
If applying under EEA rules, and requirements are met as per the "Surinder Singh" route then the UKBA cannot reject the application - they have no ability to do this because treaty rights are being exercised.

This route is not a loophole, it's a perfectly legal route that has been tested in court. I agree that the only way it can be removed is by the UK leaving the EU (and possibly the EEA too) and there would be plenty of notice before it happens after the decision is made (if this does happen at all).
If the Government decided to withdraw from EU/EEA freedom of movement regulations it would most likely be announced with immediate effect. Those already in Britain would probably be allowed to remain and switched into leave to remain under domestic immigration rules. However, the door would be closed to new arrivals.

There might be some indication unofficially of a change in policy, but not any formal advance notice. While an actual withdrawal from the EU/EEA would take longer, there is nothing that could be done by the Europeans to stop an immediate imposition of immigration control if the Government made that decision.
JAJ is offline  
Old Nov 3rd 2012, 12:03 pm
  #5  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,396
roaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
If the Government decided to withdraw from EU/EEA freedom of movement regulations it would most likely be announced with immediate effect. Those already in Britain would probably be allowed to remain and switched into leave to remain under domestic immigration rules. However, the door would be closed to new arrivals.

There might be some indication unofficially of a change in policy, but not any formal advance notice. While an actual withdrawal from the EU/EEA would take longer, there is nothing that could be done by the Europeans to stop an immediate imposition of immigration control if the Government made that decision.
I think something as major as this would (or should) be part of an election manifesto, so there would be a clear indication of likely policy. Talk is of a referendum in the next parliamentary term about continued membership of the EU (however as we know, a referendum in the UK is not binding), so the earliest any referendum might happen is late 2015 (but most likely April 2016). It's doubtful anything will happen before then.
roaringmouse is offline  
Old Nov 8th 2012, 12:38 am
  #6  
JAJ
Retired
 
JAJ's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
JAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond reputeJAJ has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Originally Posted by roaringmouse View Post
I think something as major as this would (or should) be part of an election manifesto, so there would be a clear indication of likely policy. Talk is of a referendum in the next parliamentary term about continued membership of the EU (however as we know, a referendum in the UK is not binding), so the earliest any referendum might happen is late 2015 (but most likely April 2016). It's doubtful anything will happen before then.
It is not possible to accurately predict the circumstances of British withdrawal from the EU. However is seems clear that the broad consensus that used to exist in favour of EU membership is now heavily eroded. At a minimum, it would be highly unwise to rely on EU/EEA free movement of labour rules existing in their current form at a future date.

Same applies for British citizens settled in other EU/EEA states - those eligible for local citizenship should strongly consider taking it up, unless there is a strong reason not to.
JAJ is offline  
Old Nov 9th 2012, 3:16 am
  #7  
Confirmed grumpy old man
 
Victor Meldrew's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2005
Location: Moved back to Riyadh KSA 2016
Posts: 1,298
Victor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

So when you get into UK with a non EEA/EU spouse via the Surinder Singh route, what status does your spouse have? ILR? Citizenship?

Is it a permanent status which they receive or is this re-assessed periodically?

Also are they allowed to work and utilise NHS health care?

I am also looking at returning and find the new rules for Non EEA/UE spouses both unfair and scarey.
Victor Meldrew is offline  
Old Nov 9th 2012, 4:59 am
  #8  
Confirmed grumpy old man
 
Victor Meldrew's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2005
Location: Moved back to Riyadh KSA 2016
Posts: 1,298
Victor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

also....

if one was to got to Europe to use the SS route, presuming there was a free choice, which would be the best countries to look at?

I was thinking Portugal as I believe it has a low cost of living, so to live there if not working would not cost as much as, say living in France without a job.
Victor Meldrew is offline  
Old Nov 9th 2012, 4:57 pm
  #9  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Finally moving!
Posts: 1,236
holly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew View Post
... I was thinking Portugal as I believe it has a low cost of living, so to live there if not working would not cost as much as, say living in France without a job.
As I understand it, the foreign spouse is allowed to but does not need to be working; but the UK Citizen spouse must be economically active.

I take that to mean the UK citizen must be employed (making money) or self-employed (making or losing money). And be able to prove it, and complying with local regulations. I may be wrong but I don't think that living off a pension is being bona fide economically active.
holly_1948 is offline  
Old Nov 9th 2012, 6:14 pm
  #10  
Confirmed grumpy old man
 
Victor Meldrew's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2005
Location: Moved back to Riyadh KSA 2016
Posts: 1,298
Victor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond reputeVictor Meldrew has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Originally Posted by holly_1948 View Post
As I understand it, the foreign spouse is allowed to but does not need to be working; but the UK Citizen spouse must be economically active.

I take that to mean the UK citizen must be employed (making money) or self-employed (making or losing money). And be able to prove it, and complying with local regulations. I may be wrong but I don't think that living off a pension is being bona fide economically active.
I was thinking more of - plan to get work, but take enough savings (documented by bank statements) to live on for the 6 months or so that we lived there.
Victor Meldrew is offline  
Old Nov 9th 2012, 6:47 pm
  #11  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,396
roaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond reputeroaringmouse has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew View Post
So when you get into UK with a non EEA/EU spouse via the Surinder Singh route, what status does your spouse have? ILR? Citizenship?
ILR is irrelevant to the EEA route.

The person would be exercising treaty rights and be resident. After 5 years of continuous residency they would then automatically be a permanent resident. As a person married to a British citizen doesn't need to hold permanent residency (or ILR under the UK rules) for a minimum period, they can then apply for naturalisation in the normal way presuming they meet all requirements.
roaringmouse is offline  
Old Nov 9th 2012, 10:32 pm
  #12  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: South Bucks
Posts: 1,654
feelbritish has a reputation beyond reputefeelbritish has a reputation beyond reputefeelbritish has a reputation beyond reputefeelbritish has a reputation beyond reputefeelbritish has a reputation beyond reputefeelbritish has a reputation beyond reputefeelbritish has a reputation beyond reputefeelbritish has a reputation beyond reputefeelbritish has a reputation beyond reputefeelbritish has a reputation beyond reputefeelbritish has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Someone mentioned Ireland as a place to go to and that the Irish Government should look into this. They could suddenly then get quite a lot of investment into their banks albeit for 6 months to a year! You can speak the language, buy a car there and drive on the same side of the road and visit UK easily. Spending 6 months drinking Guinness and whisky does not seem a hard feat indeed! Now how to get the Irish Government mobilised?
feelbritish is offline  
Old Nov 10th 2012, 2:59 pm
  #13  
Under blue skies
 
WEBlue's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: East Anglia->New England
Posts: 3,620
WEBlue has a reputation beyond reputeWEBlue has a reputation beyond reputeWEBlue has a reputation beyond reputeWEBlue has a reputation beyond reputeWEBlue has a reputation beyond reputeWEBlue has a reputation beyond reputeWEBlue has a reputation beyond reputeWEBlue has a reputation beyond reputeWEBlue has a reputation beyond reputeWEBlue has a reputation beyond reputeWEBlue has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Originally Posted by holly_1948 View Post
As I understand it, the foreign spouse is allowed to but does not need to be working; but the UK Citizen spouse must be economically active.

I take that to mean the UK citizen must be employed (making money) or self-employed (making or losing money). And be able to prove it, and complying with local regulations. I may be wrong but I don't think that living off a pension is being bona fide economically active.
This is exactly what I understand too, the the EU citizen (i.e. the UK citizen) MUST hold a job of some kind & pay into the EU country's tax system for a minimum of some vague period of time. Some say 3 months, some say 6. AND be able to completely document this.

Going to school, living off savings or whatever other previous income or savings would not work. You must directly participate in work in the host EU country for this (not so clear) period of time. The non-EEA/EU spouse may or may not work; it's NOT her exercising the treaty rights, and her activity is not the key to moving back to the UK under S. Singh. The EU permits & residence car are free and there are no income requirement thresholds.

Proof of it all is here (see section EUN2 14):
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/po...eun2/#header14

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew View Post
I was thinking more of - plan to get work, but take enough savings (documented by bank statements) to live on for the 6 months or so that we lived there.
No, I don't think this would suffice. You must work somehow, and document your work, in order to bring your wife back to your home country. She then has the right to permanent residency after 5 years in the UK (if she stays married to you) through this route.

The whole thing is crazy, in a way, but that's the SS rule.
WEBlue is offline  
Old Nov 10th 2012, 5:25 pm
  #14  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Finally moving!
Posts: 1,236
holly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

The good thing appears to be that the quality of the work is not at issue. You could be a qualified civil engineer with twenty years in your profession. But a part-time job as a shop assistant in Dublin would do provided you paid some employer deducted taxes however meagre.
Experience suggests that being a taxi driver might be the easiest self-employment situation to get going quickly.

Last edited by holly_1948; Nov 10th 2012 at 5:28 pm.
holly_1948 is offline  
Old Nov 10th 2012, 5:42 pm
  #15  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Finally moving!
Posts: 1,236
holly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond reputeholly_1948 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Tell me more about the Surrinder Singh process please?

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew View Post
So when you get into UK with a non EEA/EU spouse via the Surinder Singh route, what status does your spouse have? ILR? Citizenship? ...
See
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eu...family-permit/
holly_1948 is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.