JAJ

Have you thought about living in Ireland for 3 years, then becoming an Irish citizen? The residence requirement for naturalisation is shorter for the spouse of an Irish citizen (3 years normally, versus 5 years standard).

Speedwell

We've thought about it. I suppose it's probably our best option for now! Thank you.

englishguygoinghome

Yes - the sentence should have been:
If he lives in Ireland as an Irish citizen then you wouldn't be excluded for the same reason as McCarthy (because he has lived abroad) but would probably still get a rejection from UKBA on similar grounds to the above if you try to come in to the UK either under SS or his Irish passport.


The Irish will have their own rules regarding their own citizens and spouses, just like the British (see here: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000024). They don't look onerous, you can even apply in country if you are a non-visa national. BUT you have no right to work while the applciaiton is being processed and that can take "up to 12 months"

chaoclive

I'm in the exact same position as the OP. I'm a dual British/Irish citizen (from N. Ireland) with a non-EEA civil partner.

I've been chasing this for AGES,...the only ways are:
1) renounce one passport (Irish one might be easier to get back)
2) live in another EU country for a period of about 6 months or more
3) Irish spouse visa (much easier than the UK spouse visa)

That's all it boils down to...no other options. I've asked the EUTR department at INIS and they confirmed that they wouldn't provide an entry visa for the spouse of an Irish citizen (they are right, as the Treaty is for movement, and working in a country of which one is a citizen is NOT moving.)

The UK is much clearer on this as the application form for a residence card (EEA2) specifically asks if the EEA national is British or not.

I'm going with option 2 above - it's the easiest for me. However, the Irish spouse visa might be a good one too.

All the best with it!
CC

holly_1948

That's what I would do in the circumstances described.
Irish citizenship being an ace in the hole if nothing else that is somehow better and quicker is found in the meanwhile.
Dublin is a nice place to live I'm told. Heck you might even fall in love with Ireland. I very much doubt there will be a problem with doing unpaid volunteer work.

Count your blessings, it reminds me of that poem, "Welcome to Holland"
http://www.our-kids.org/Archives/Holland.html

rebeccajo

But this is not the same scenario as that before Speedwell.

Speedwell doesn't need an entry visa to go to Ireland or the UK. She's got a blue American passport.

If her husband brings her into the Republic on his British passport, there is plenty of opinion on other internet communities that Singh will work for her.

chaoclive

Hi there

Since she doesn't need an entry visa for Ireland she can definitely enter the ROI and proceed directly to the Garda Station to get her GNIB card as the spouse of an Irish citizen. This is for certain.

However, she said specifically that she was considering Surinder Singh; I'm not sure how this works for a non-visa required national (I have not specifically researched this as it is irrelevant for us). Can the spouse of a British (albeit also an Irish national) just proceed to the Garda Station to apply for a GNIB card as the family member of an EEA citizen? I guess that the answer would be 'yes'. Hope someone else will clarify for her. Of course, there may be more info on the INIS website.

I, personally, would be careful with the GNIB thing; at least with which passport her partner presents.
1)If he presents the British passport, she should be given an 4EUFAM stamp in her passport - everything would work out fine, as long as the UKBA didn't know that he also holds an Irish passport.
2) If he presents the Irish passport, she should be given Stamp 4. This should be obvious to the British Embassy when she applied for a visa to the UK (EEA Family Permit under Surinder Singh).

If the British Embassy notes that she has Stamp 4 (NOT 4EUFAM) they will know that her partner holds an Irish passport and that they are not eligible to apply under Surinder Singh as she does not fulfill this requirement: "a national of a non-member country who is the spouse of a Union citizen residing in that Member State but not possessing its nationality".

This is an excerpt from the INIS website: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages...Treaty_Rights?

"Q.13 I am an Irish National. Can my non EEA family members apply for EU Treaty Rights?

A The Directive applies to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members who accompany or join them. (Article 3 of Directive 2004/38/EC)
If, as an Irish national, you have exercised your EU Treaty Rights in another Member State with your family member and have now returned to Ireland, you may apply.

Evidence of having exercised your EU Treaty Rights in the other Member State in respect of you and your family member must be submitted with the application along with all other relevant documentation."

Whilst the Irish authorities might not check quite as much as the UKBA, the declaration at the end of the form still states: "I am aware that a person who asserts an entitlement to any rights on the basis of information which he or she knows to be false or misleading in a material particular shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 12 months, or both". I wouldn't be comfortable signing this when I know, according to the law, I shouldn't be applying (I hold both British and Irish passports and am not exercising treaty rights by working in one of my 'home countries'). This is just my personal opinion.

In her situation, I would simply apply as the spouse of an Irish citizen and, as she points out in further posts, just fly off to the UK as and when required (as long as her company is able to pay her via Ireland). I'm not an expert on her situation but, if the situation is as simple as the 'opinion on other internet communities' seem to lead you to believe then she shouldn't have any issues.

Best
CC

not2old

sorry if this wasn't already dealt with - maybe this is way too complicated for me or too simple

OH as an Irish citizen - why not use the EEA family permit to take you directly to the UK?

No need to mention or disclose that OH is a dual citizen. Apply for the EEA family permit as a non EU citizen

rebeccajo

I never advocate that people should only rely on information gleaned from internet communities. Such communities are useful for research though. IMO, Speedwell should definitely get some professional advice. I did when bringing my husband to the US, and when adjusting his status to permanent resident. Three times, in fact.

Speedwell's husband cannot bring her in through Ireland on his Irish passport and then file for a family permit through that entry. That is what the McCarthy decision was about. If they want to come in through Ireland on Singh, he has to be British.

rebeccajo

Can't. Prohibited.

Use your friend Google for a better understanding.

Put in "UK free movement McCarthy".

chaoclive

I agree that legal advice would be useful, but at the end of the day it is Speedwell and her spouse who will actually sign the document...

I would, as someone else suggests above, go with the Irish spouse route which may cause some issues when starting up (Irish bank account/renting an apartment etc), but would work well over the longer term as she would have access to EU citizenship (via Irish passport) in 3 years and she couldn't possibly be accused of breaking any form of law. If required, her spouse could still commute to work in Northern Ireland (don't know if this is relevant to her situation) and live in the ROI. I have loads of friends who do this on a daily basis (but then, they don't have immigration issues to contend with - lucky people).

I'm still concentrating on my European mainland adventure (probably to sunny Spain).

Wish her all the best.
CC

rebeccajo

Sure, one can live in the Republic and work in the north if they wish. That's always an option.

Going to a third country is the clearest route, if using Singh.

And, asfar as I know, if the non-EU can get into the north legally via free movement, they can still claim Irish citizenship after three years via marriage to the Irish citizen. They don't have to live in the Republic. Get that done, and no need to bow to the UKBA after five years for permanent residency via the family permit.

In other words, get yer family permit, then get yer Irish passport.

not2old

"The European Court of Justice’s ruling on Thursday 5 May 2011 in McCarthy v Secretary of State for the Home Department was in response to the United Kingdom’s Supreme Court having referred questions to the European Court regarding the scope of free movement rights.

The case was referred because of its particular facts. Mrs Stella McCarthy is a citizen of the United Kingdom. She married her husband, a Jamaican national in 2002. He did not have leave to remain in the UK. After she got married Mrs McCarthy applied for and was granted Irish nationality."

I looked at it - points on McCarthy decision & how it would apply to the OP

1. We don't know (unless I missed it) whether at the time of application for the EEA family permit the OP's husband is

a) Is residing in the UK - if so, then I agree wit the McCarthy ruling as it would apply to the OP question

b) Was the OP husband born in the UK or Ireland & became an Irish citizen after marriage - then this likely would be similar to the McCarthy case, although if the OP's husband is not living in the UK at the time of the EEA application which you'd think would be a straight forward application to the UK government consulate in America & approved

c) Would the deciding factor for an EEA family permit be refused if the OP husband got his Irish citizenship after marriage (even if they were living outside the UK) so they could apply for the EEA family permit?

d) Would the issuance of the EEA family permit be based on

i) how long the OP husband has been out of the UK and is considered a non resident?

ii)Is the OP husband currently a citizen of the US or have a current up to date British passport?

iii) would not have to renounce his British citizenship


My suggestion is the OP applies to enter the UK for the EEA family permit in the states using her husbands Irish passport & see how it all shakes down.

rebeccajo

The McCarthy case caused UKBA to set up policy saying that if your are British, then you are only British and can't rely on another nationality to enter the UK unless the BritCit exercises free movement. Period.

The logical argument then - for someone from Nothern Ireland - is OK well then you can't ignore my Britishness if I go to live in another country as British.

About five years ago, my husband and I entered at Dublin. He went through in front of me on his British passport - I was behind with my US passport. The entry clearance officer got pi$$y with me when I said "visiting family" as my reason for a visit. He knew he couldn't stop me (non-EEA) from coming in with an EU citizen IF we wanted to settle - the words "family" caused his panties to bunch. I didn't get the normal 90 days for Ireland - I got a stamp for the return date of my flight.

I had a really reputable solicitor tell me once, that a person could use their "irishness" to fight a negative perm res decision by UKBA. But that was a consult only and I was going to have to pay real money to find out the reason that might work. Thus the reason for my advice to get a legal opinion in cases of dual nationality for persons from Northern Ireland. That guy knew something useful or he would not have made the claim.

chaoclive

Totally agree. This is going to be our choice after we return from Spain.

You can see this answer on re: applying for a "Criminal Record Check" from the Police Service of N. Ireland (much quicker than the Irish Garda Report) which is required when applying for Irish citizenship: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...ncoming-443873.