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section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

Old Feb 4th 2024, 9:32 pm
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

Thank you, I hope you are right. I find it all very confusing. It seemed to me to pivot on my date of birth, before 1949. I'll wait for a comment from BritinParis. i am grateful for the work, research, time and patience of anyone knowledgable about all this because my head is spinning.
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Old Feb 5th 2024, 7:16 pm
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To BritinParis: I believe I owe you an apology. I just joined recently and have been reading other threads. I have been seeing so many threads with questions and you have been so helpful and knowledgable. My knowledge is scant to say the least. It worries me that I contradicted you when you suggested section 4C. I read constantly all day and just get more and more confused and blurted out what seemed like a contradiction to 4C being applicable. Whenever you have time, I would very much appreciate any suggestions you may have. I have to stop researching for a bit, my head is about to implode...or explode, neither of which is helpful. Thank you so much for your time and patience and research.
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Old Feb 5th 2024, 7:32 pm
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

Originally Posted by LeftMyHeartInEngland
To BritinParis: I believe I owe you an apology. I just joined recently and have been reading other threads. I have been seeing so many threads with questions and you have been so helpful and knowledgable. My knowledge is scant to say the least. It worries me that I contradicted you when you suggested section 4C. I read constantly all day and just get more and more confused and blurted out what seemed like a contradiction to 4C being applicable. Whenever you have time, I would very much appreciate any suggestions you may have. I have to stop researching for a bit, my head is about to implode...or explode, neither of which is helpful. Thank you so much for your time and patience and research.
The amazing BiP is a very busy man, and tends to respond to lots of threads all in one go, but doesn't post every day - so please be patient and I'm sure he'll respond as and when he gets time.

Good luck.
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Old Feb 5th 2024, 8:12 pm
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

Thank you christmasoompa - a little luck and a lot of help. I am most grateful...and patient.
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Old Feb 6th 2024, 3:46 pm
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

I've put together a timeline of all that I know and have documentation for or have ordered documentation for. Hoping it might help to determine if I am able to apply for citizenship and, if so, under what section of th Act.

Paternal great grandfather:
Born 1857, Liverpool, UK
Died: 1887, Liverpool, UK

Grandfather:
Born: 1881, Liverpool. UK
His father died age 30, leaving wife and 4 children. Great grandmother could not care for family, was forced to give up two eldest children (boys), age 9 & 6 (my grandfather) to Liverpool Foundling Home who, in turn, put the two little boys on a ship to Canada (1888) to become farm labourers (British Home Children).
Married: 1904, Ontario, Canada
Died: 1955, Ontario, Canada

Father:
Born: 1909, Ontario, Canada
Married: 1941, Ontario, Canada (mother born 1921, Saskatchewan, Canada, of British descent but a few generations, Died: 1983, Saskatchewan, Canada)
Divorced: 1961
Died: 1999, British Columbia, Canada

Me: Born: 1945, Ontario, Canada

Note in case it is relevant: Married in England to British Citizen in 2010, granted Discretionary Leave to Remain, 2010-2013. Returned to Canada January 2014 due to severe abuse by husband as a result of effects of stroke (Jan 2013) on his personality. My passport was at Home Office along with my application for another 3 years Leave. When passport returned, application destroyed. Lost right to be in UK. Returned to UK 2015 as visitor, Husband very ill, applied for and granted Discretionary Leave to Remain on Compassionate Grounds, 2015-2018. Abuse escalated, left again Feb, 2018. relinquished biometric residence permit to Home Office. Flew to UK Nov 2018 when husband's health declined. Was detained for 6 hours, refused entry on the grounds I would overstay (which I would not do), given permission to stay with husband for one week, extended to one month when husband was hospitlized suffering from mini-stroke. Husband hospitalized twice during the month. Husband died 2022. (I have a National Insurance Number and receive a UK state pension)

I have most birth, death, marriage certificates except my mother's birth and death certificates. Will order them. Have requested my father's military records and my UK immigration records.

I've researched section 4C as mentioned by BritinParis and can see how it would apply. My concern is that when I had a status trace done by Sable International, I was told that I wasn't eligible for citizenship through my mother's marriage to my father because I was born before Jan 1, 1949. When I queried, I was told it was because my father could have registered me as British within one year of my birth and didn't do so, that only children born after December 31, 1948 are eligible. I have scoured the British Nationality Act going back to 1914. The only reference I found for the need to register children within one year of birth was for 'foreign nationals'.in the 1922 Act. I could find nothing to support what I had been told, nothing to indicate that there is a cut-off year.

We, that's it in a nutshell. Any suggestions/comments much appreciated.
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Old Feb 6th 2024, 11:01 pm
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

I forgot to mention my father's military record in case Sable is right that I don't qualify through my mother's marriage to my father because I was born before 1949, if they are correct in saying that I am ineligible because my father could/should have registered me as British within one year of my birth in 1945. My thought is that, if it can be proven that he was unable to register me due to exceptional circumstances (world war 2), I might be able to apply using section 4L c).

Enlisted in Canadian Army (Queen's Own Rifles) February 1944, Ontario, Canada
Reported for duty UK November 1944
Posted to North West Europe (Holland, I believe) June 1, 1945, 5 weeks after my birth.
Discharged and returned to Canada August 1946
*I was born in late April 1945. My mother registered my birth May 5 in Ontario. My father would have had to register me as British at the Canadian Embassy (assuming there was that provision) in the first 5 weeks after my birth and I assume after he received proof of birth from Canada. Canadian Embassies in Holland had been evacuated during the war so he could not have registered me during the first year after my birth at any time other than the short few weeks after my birth.

I hope I have not muddied the waters with this additional information. I am looking at two possible options that might be available to me so have included everything that I know that might be relevant in either case.

Thank you kindly

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Old Feb 10th 2024, 2:07 am
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

The more I research, the more clear and straightforward it becomes...I think.

I have read in Home Office guidance the following with regard to consular births: "For registration of a birth in a British Consulate, the birth must be registered in accordance with the legal requirements of the country in which the birth occurred and certificates should be obtained from the relevant local authority."

I was concerned that for the short time my father was stationed in England after my birth (34 days) or during the year and a half that he was subsequently posted to the Netherlands, the British Embassy that had been evacuated might have reopened. He might have had opportunity to register my birth there.

But since reading the above Home Office directive, that would not have been acceptable.

He had to register me in Canada, not overseas, within one year of my birth. Exceptional circumstances prevented him form doing that because he was posted overseas with the Canadian Army from November 1944 (5 months before my birth) until August 1946 (16 months after my birth). Legislation at the time required that the father who was British by descent register the birth at a British consulate. My mother, not British, would not have been able to do so in my father's place, i wouldn't think.

Is it that straightforward?? Exceptional circumstances prevented my father from registering my birth in a British consulate in the country in which I was born. It seems clear to me. 4L c) seems appropriate.

Thoughts please.
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Old Feb 11th 2024, 2:40 pm
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

One last question, I think., a Guide ARD fee question.

The guide regarding fees states:

"there is no application fee to apply for British citizenship if you would have acquired that status automatically but for........, but you will need to pay the ceremony fee"
"if however you would have qualified for registration or naturalization but for....., you will still need to pay an application fee to register under this route as well as a ceremony fee".

In the case of required past registration (pre-1949) of a newborn at a British Consulate by a British by Descent father, the status would have been automatic, not discretionary.

Would the fee today be for automatic or registration?

Thank you kindly for any insight you may be able to share.
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Old Feb 12th 2024, 12:57 am
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

I have the answer to my question above! Love this forum, if I keep reading and reading threads I sometimes find the answer I need.

I would complete Form ARD for a s.4L registration.

My concern now is the cost...2500 cdn. dollars! I can manage if I have even a notion that my application might be successful. But would be devistated...and $2500 poorer...if it is not successful.

I worry that my reasoning might be skewed, that I am missing something painfully obvious.

If someone has the time to have a quick peek at my reasoning in my few posts above and can give me some encouragement or make me see reason, I'd be so grateful. I am feeling stressed about this decision because, though it's not crucial that I get home in a year's time, it is very important to me. I'd be relieved if this is the route for me...and, if not, it is what it is.

Thank you kindly.
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Old Feb 12th 2024, 3:04 am
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

Originally Posted by LeftMyHeartInEngland
I have the answer to my question above! Love this forum, if I keep reading and reading threads I sometimes find the answer I need.

I would complete Form ARD for a s.4L registration.

My concern now is the cost...2500 cdn. dollars! I can manage if I have even a notion that my application might be successful. But would be devistated...and $2500 poorer...if it is not successful.

I worry that my reasoning might be skewed, that I am missing something painfully obvious.

If someone has the time to have a quick peek at my reasoning in my few posts above and can give me some encouragement or make me see reason, I'd be so grateful. I am feeling stressed about this decision because, though it's not crucial that I get home in a year's time, it is very important to me. I'd be relieved if this is the route for me...and, if not, it is what it is.

Thank you kindly.
I do not know the answer to your question nor do I know how much you are supposed to pay. But, if you are applying based on consular birth registration, which in your case you will be saying didn't happen because of extenuating circumstances, you may only have to pay 80 pounds. I cannot guarantee that, but I successfully applied under section 4L and only paid 80 pounds (British grandmother - my birth couldn't be registered because of gender discrimination). I was born after 1949 though so under the 1948 BNA, so our cases are not the same. But if you don't get a definitive answer about how much you are supposed to pay, you could answer 1.4a as No, and 1.4b as Yes (which is how I answered), and pay 80 pounds and submit - the worst that happens is they write you and say you need to pay more and then you decide if it's worth it.
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Old Feb 12th 2024, 4:57 am
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

Thank you Glassybell for responding. The similarity would be in the registration. Your mother wasn't able to register you, my father wasn't able to register me. The differences are in the reasons they couldn't and the legislation at the two different time periods. I'm not sure either of those differences would be issues, hopefully not, but it's difficult to say, isn't it.

I'm hoping someone might respond and be able to give me an idea if my application might have a chance to be successful or not. It's difficult because 4L is so new, there aren't very many cases to refer to, especially the ones with regard to exceptional circumstances. My reasoning seems clear and sensible to me but I worry that I might not be thinking straight because I want to go home so much.

Can I ask please, how long ago did you apply and how long did the whole process take? I wonder too, if they check applications straightaway to see if the right fee was paid or do they look at that down the road a bit when someone sits down to examine the application. I wonder that because if they want it immediately I would feel better waiting a few more months before applying. I would be uncomfortable having my savings diminished that much. I'd rather have savings specifically for the fee.

Thanks again for your response. It does give me a bit of hope.
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Old Feb 12th 2024, 7:08 am
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

Originally Posted by LeftMyHeartInEngland
Thank you Glassybell for responding. The similarity would be in the registration. Your mother wasn't able to register you, my father wasn't able to register me. The differences are in the reasons they couldn't and the legislation at the two different time periods. I'm not sure either of those differences would be issues, hopefully not, but it's difficult to say, isn't it.

I'm hoping someone might respond and be able to give me an idea if my application might have a chance to be successful or not. It's difficult because 4L is so new, there aren't very many cases to refer to, especially the ones with regard to exceptional circumstances. My reasoning seems clear and sensible to me but I worry that I might not be thinking straight because I want to go home so much.

Can I ask please, how long ago did you apply and how long did the whole process take? I wonder too, if they check applications straightaway to see if the right fee was paid or do they look at that down the road a bit when someone sits down to examine the application. I wonder that because if they want it immediately I would feel better waiting a few more months before applying. I would be uncomfortable having my savings diminished that much. I'd rather have savings specifically for the fee.

Thanks again for your response. It does give me a bit of hope.
I applied end of November 2022 and was approved very end of August 2023. I would assume they check the correct fee was paid when they actually review the app. I am guessing though.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...abroad/enacted. Have you read over that Act? Read section 1 and section 2 - which applied to you?
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Old Feb 12th 2024, 11:52 am
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

As far as I can see, I would be covered by section 2.

2 British nationality of persons born in foreign countries where His Majesty exercises jurisdiction

(1) Any person born, whether before or after the commencement of this Act, in a place where by treaty, capitulation, grant, usage, sufferance, or other lawful means, His Majesty was at the time of that person's birth exercising jurisdiction over British subjects, shall, if at the time of his birth his father was a British subject, be deemed to be and, in the case of a person born before the commencement of this Act, always to have been, a natural-born British subject.

Section 1 refers to 'persons born outside of his Majesty's dominions". Canada was part of his Majesty's dominions so it doesn't seem to apply to me. This section is where the need for registration at a British Consulate is written.

My confusion grew when I had a status trace done and was told that it was unlikely (5%) that I am entitled to apply for British citizenship because I was born before enactment of BNA 1948.

I pressed and was told that as I was born before 1949, my father was responsible to register me at a British Consulate.

The 1943 Act doesn't seem to support this so I pressed some more to have them tell me where legislation said that I had to be registered at a British Consulate and was told that for 350 pounds and a 30 minute phone call I would be told. Instead I keep researching...and getting more confused.

I just kept relying on the reputation of the company that did the status trace (not sure I can mention the name) and assumed they are right. But it niggles at me that they may not be. If they are mistaken, what does that mean?? Am I in a sort of limbo or does BNA 1948 cover me through my mother, married to my father before 1949?? My head spins. Further up in my thread BritinParis posted, saying he thought I am eligible to apply using form UKM. Britin Paris was going to look into it and check for sure if he was on the right track but I haven't heard yet. I know he is very busy and will post when he can. In the meantime I focused on the 'need to register' aspect and found my father's military records which show that he was unable to register me...so I barreled on in the direction.

hahaha...my head hurts!




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Old Feb 13th 2024, 12:10 am
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

Originally Posted by LeftMyHeartInEngland

As far as I can see, I would be covered by section 2.

2 British nationality of persons born in foreign countries where His Majesty exercises jurisdiction

(1) Any person born, whether before or after the commencement of this Act, in a place where by treaty, capitulation, grant, usage, sufferance, or other lawful means, His Majesty was at the time of that person's birth exercising jurisdiction over British subjects, shall, if at the time of his birth his father was a British subject, be deemed to be and, in the case of a person born before the commencement of this Act, always to have been, a natural-born British subject.

Section 1 refers to 'persons born outside of his Majesty's dominions". Canada was part of his Majesty's dominions so it doesn't seem to apply to me. This section is where the need for registration at a British Consulate is written.

My confusion grew when I had a status trace done and was told that it was unlikely (5%) that I am entitled to apply for British citizenship because I was born before enactment of BNA 1948.

I pressed and was told that as I was born before 1949, my father was responsible to register me at a British Consulate.

The 1943 Act doesn't seem to support this so I pressed some more to have them tell me where legislation said that I had to be registered at a British Consulate and was told that for 350 pounds and a 30 minute phone call I would be told. Instead I keep researching...and getting more confused.

I just kept relying on the reputation of the company that did the status trace (not sure I can mention the name) and assumed they are right. But it niggles at me that they may not be. If they are mistaken, what does that mean?? Am I in a sort of limbo or does BNA 1948 cover me through my mother, married to my father before 1949?? My head spins. Further up in my thread BritinParis posted, saying he thought I am eligible to apply using form UKM. Britin Paris was going to look into it and check for sure if he was on the right track but I haven't heard yet. I know he is very busy and will post when he can. In the meantime I focused on the 'need to register' aspect and found my father's military records which show that he was unable to register me...so I barreled on in the direction.

hahaha...my head hurts!
Yes, it is quite confusing. If I were you, I'd start from scratch and use the laws at my birth to determine my status at birth and afterwards. I would read over the various nationality acts from 1914-1948 and familiarize myself with anything relevant to a person born in Canada (including parents), as well as marriage. And then I'd look at the 1948 BNA, particularly this section https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...tional/enacted. I'd look at this too: https://pier21.ca/research/immigrati...nship-act-1947.

Again, I honestly know nothing about the Commonwealth and how these laws affected people born in Canada, etc. But I do know whatever claim you might (or might not) have will be 100% based in the law and its interpretation over time. When you read the laws, read them a couple times from different perspectives - so as they applied to your father, from your mother, and you. Once you know them pretty well, you can probably look up cases and interpretations. For example, section 4c of the 1981 BNA allowed children born abroad to British women to register as citizens, but not children born to British by descent women because their births weren't registered with the consulate... because women could not register their kids' births. So a court case, Romein, happened that was unfair and it said children born to British by descent women (born to British fathers) could register now under section 4c. And now that has been written into the 1981 BNA, but it took a few years for that legislative change to happen. I'm sure there are other relevant decisions out there, I just don't know any of them.

Try to forget the idea of a "1949 cutoff." There isn't a cutoff, there is a before the 1948 BNA and an after the 1948 BNA. So read it to find out why it affects things so much. It is what established CUKC for one thing.

After you know the laws better, if you haven't gotten any free assistance on forums, you might want to just pay for a consult with a solicitor to find out what they think your route, if any, is. I have no doubt once you know the laws and know what a valid legal route is for you, that you could formulate an argument and apply on your own without paying a lawyer to do it.

Here are links to those nationality acts you might find most helpful:

1914 Act
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...4-5/17/enacted

These amended the 1914 act:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...ntents/enacted

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...-24/49/enacted

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...20would%20have

1948 act:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...ntents/enacted

Oh, and if it's relevant, the 1981 BNA section 4c or 4L.

Last edited by Glassybell; Feb 13th 2024 at 12:16 am.
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Old Feb 13th 2024, 1:35 am
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Default Re: section 4L, acquisition by registration:special circumstances

My goodness, how good of you to do all this for me. I'm very grateful. And you're right, time to start from scratch. I will download the references you gave me and I'll go back to the past and work my way forward. That's how I started my research but kept getting distracted, going in too many directions.

I thought that if I could find the legislation Sable told me about, that before 1949 a British by descent father was obligated to register a child within one year of birth, I'd have what I need to apply...4L c...but I found nothing anywhere which mystifies and irritates me.

Then I headed in another direction (who is CUKC and who isn't) and found it equally irritating because i get conflicting messages and can't find that answer either.

So now I'll tke a deep breath and do some time travel back to 1914 and start there. If I find anything you'll hear me hollering from here.

Thank you again for all your help and encouragement. <3
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