Immigration Question

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments and time. I have spoken
with two attorneys, twice with Immigration & Naturalization Service
(so that I could get two different reps' opinions), with the Indian
cosulate in San Francisco and with the Indian Embassy in Washington
DC. In an effort to help others, below is the summary of my research.
In conclusion, we are getting our son a US passport with a PIO card;
if you are reading this after December 31, 2004, you should probably
go for the dual-citizenship option because that law should have been
sorted out by then (more on dual citizenship in para 7 below).

Please understand that the notes below are based on my belief that I
should obey both the letter and the spirit of the laws of both India
and USA; I do not want to do anything which is even slightly
questionable.

1. Like all children born out of their parents' country of
citizenship, our son is eligible for citizenship both in the US as
well as in India (some have suggested here that his American
citizenship has higher preponderance since he was born here; this is
incorrect). We can make a choice for him for now, but he can override
that choice when he is 18. In any case, even after he is 18, he can
always switch citizenships for the rest of his life.

2. If we opt for an Indian passport for him, he will need a visa to
get back into the US (confirmed by INS; they suggested that he will
need to get a tourist visa). We can decide to initiate a green card
process for him (the Family & Children application) but there is a 5+
years wait on that. I want to clarify the misconception that he can
never get a US visa because he is a US citizen; this is incorrect; he
was born in the US but his citizenship is judged based on his passport
-- for example, if at age 18, he opts for an Indian passport, he will
be given a US visa even if he told the US consulate that he was born
in the USA. This last point was specifically confirmed with the INS.

3. We can not get both the Indian and American passports for him right
now (this is expected to change by the end of 2004). At the moment, it
is illegal for an Indian citizen to hold another passport. (It has
been suggested here that he can use one passport going to India and
another for returning to USA; this is illegal).

4. Children used to be listed on parents' passports. But due to the
need for increased security, this is not the case for Indian parents
any more. In fact, now, at the time of passport renewal, the parents
of Indian children with such notations are encouraged to get their
children their own passports.

5. Anyone can get a passport (for their appropriate country) at any
age, starting on day 1. (It is incorrect to say that the child has to
be 12 to get their own passport).

6. To travel back to India he can either get a multi-year, multiple
entry Visitor visa (takes 1-2 days to get) or a PIO (Person of Indian
Origin) card -- which takes 3-4 weeks. More on PIO card in the para
below.

7. Just a few words about the differences between an Indian Tourist
Visa, the PIO card and Dual Citizenship for Indians. An Indian Tourist
Visa allows you to visit for no more than six months at a time
(6-month extensions possible; you apply while in India); you can not
work there, go to school or buy/sell property, although you can
inherit property. A PIO card is issued to anyone born in India or to
anyone with Indian (not sure if one or both) parents; valid for 15
years; visit as long as you like but for continuous stays of 6 months+
require additional paper filings with the local authorities; you can
not work or go to school but you can buy/sell property. The upcoming
Dual Citizenship will be granted only to people of Indian origin with
a foreign passport of certain countries (the United States, Canada,
England, the European Union, Australia, New Zealand and Singapore); it
is obviously valid for life or until you renounce; visit as often and
for as long as you like; work, study, hold property, do business; can
NOT work for the military or the government; can NOT vote or run for
public office.

8. Everything we do for him is our legal responsibility. (Someone has
suggested that he could plead ignorance and say that he does not know
that he has the 'other' passport. This is incorrect; until we act as
his guardians, anything he does or does not know is inadmissible; in
the eyes of the law, we as guardians are responsible for everything
that we do in his name).



[email protected] (Immigration Question) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > My wife and I are both Indian citizens with green cards. We have a son
    > who was born in California. Since the Indian embassy does not annotate
    > the mother's passport for a child any more, we are required to get a
    > passport for him so that he can travel with us to India and back.
    > Which passport should we get, Indian or American, since he is eligible
    > for both?
    >
    > As far as I can see, if he gets an American passport, we will have to
    > get an Indian visa for travel to India (we can get a multi-year,
    > multi-entry visa to reduce the hassle); if he gets an Indian passport,
    > he will need some sort of an American visa to travel back to the US.
    > Dual citizenship for Indians is still a work-in-progress. There is
    > also an emotional aspect to this: I WANT him to get an Indian passport
    > -- unless it causes major hassles for travelling back and forth to
    > India.
    >
    > What can be the possible downsides of getting a US Passport for him
    > down the road? His rights in India or here? If you have been through a
    > similar situation, please help. Thanks.

Joachim Feise

Immigration Question wrote on 4/7/2004 11:20:

    > Thank you all for your thoughtful comments and time. I have spoken
    > with two attorneys, twice with Immigration & Naturalization Service
    > (so that I could get two different reps' opinions), with the Indian

Forget CIS people. The people on the front lines don't know the law...

    > cosulate in San Francisco and with the Indian Embassy in Washington
    > DC. In an effort to help others, below is the summary of my research.

Which is wrong.

    > 1. Like all children born out of their parents' country of
    > citizenship, our son is eligible for citizenship both in the US as

He is not just "eligible" for US citizenship, he is a US citizen by
birth. There is nothing voluntary about it...

    > well as in India (some have suggested here that his American
    > citizenship has higher preponderance since he was born here; this is
    > incorrect). We can make a choice for him for now, but he can override
    > that choice when he is 18.

Hmm, no. You can't make that choice.
Since he is born in the US, he is a US citizen by virtue of the 14th
amendment to the US constitution. There is nothing for anybody to chose.
The US constitution makes that choice for you. Period.
The *only* thing you can chose is to get or not get a US passport for
him.
Once he is at least 18, he can chose to renounce US citizenship.

    > 2. If we opt for an Indian passport for him, he will need a visa to
    > get back into the US (confirmed by INS; they suggested that he will

As I said, the people at CIS (INS doesn't exist anymore) don't know
the law. He is a US citizen by birth, and can't get any visa. Period.

    > need to get a tourist visa). We can decide to initiate a green card
    > process for him (the Family & Children application) but there is a 5+
    > years wait on that.

You can't do that, because he is a US citizen.

    > I want to clarify the misconception that he can
    > never get a US visa because he is a US citizen; this is incorrect; he
    > was born in the US but his citizenship is judged based on his passport

That is complete BS!!!
He is a US citizen by birth. His citizenship is judged on his birth
certificate!
THe passport is irrelevant for citizenship determination.

    > -- for example, if at age 18, he opts for an Indian passport, he will
    > be given a US visa even if he told the US consulate that he was born
    > in the USA. This last point was specifically confirmed with the INS.

As I said, forget CIS. They are wrong, completely wrong!

-Joe

Immigration Question

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments and time. I have spoken
with two attorneys, twice with Immigration & Naturalization Service
(so that I could get two different reps' opinions), with the Indian
cosulate in San Francisco and with the Indian Embassy in Washington
DC. In an effort to help others, below is the summary of my research.
In conclusion, we are getting our son a US passport with a PIO card;
if you are reading this after December 31, 2004, you should probably
go for the dual-citizenship option because that law should have been
sorted out by then (more on dual citizenship in para 7 below).

Please understand that the notes below are based on my belief that I
should obey both the letter and the spirit of the laws of both India
and USA; I do not want to do anything which is even slightly
questionable.

1. Like all children born out of their parents' country of
citizenship, our son is eligible for citizenship both in the US as
well as in India (some have suggested here that his American
citizenship has higher preponderance since he was born here; this is
incorrect). We can make a choice for him for now, but he can override
that choice when he is 18. In any case, even after he is 18, he can
always switch citizenships for the rest of his life.

2. If we opt for an Indian passport for him, he will need a visa to
get back into the US (confirmed by INS; they suggested that he will
need to get a tourist visa). We can decide to initiate a green card
process for him (the Family & Children application) but there is a 5+
years wait on that. I want to clarify the misconception that he can
never get a US visa because he is a US citizen; this is incorrect; he
was born in the US but his citizenship is judged based on his passport
-- for example, if at age 18, he opts for an Indian passport, he will
be given a US visa even if he told the US consulate that he was born
in the USA. This last point was specifically confirmed with the INS.

3. We can not get both the Indian and American passports for him right
now (this is expected to change by the end of 2004). At the moment, it
is illegal for an Indian citizen to hold another passport. (It has
been suggested here that he can use one passport going to India and
another for returning to USA; this is illegal).

4. Children used to be listed on parents' passports. But due to the
need for increased security, this is not the case for Indian parents
any more. In fact, now, at the time of passport renewal, the parents
of Indian children with such notations are encouraged to get their
children their own passports.

5. Anyone can get a passport (for their appropriate country) at any
age, starting on day 1. (It is incorrect to say that the child has to
be 12 to get their own passport).

6. To travel back to India he can either get a multi-year, multiple
entry Visitor visa (takes 1-2 days to get) or a PIO (Person of Indian
Origin) card -- which takes 3-4 weeks. More on PIO card in the para
below.

7. Just a few words about the differences between an Indian Tourist
Visa, the PIO card and Dual Citizenship for Indians. An Indian Tourist
Visa allows you to visit for no more than six months at a time
(6-month extensions possible; you apply while in India); you can not
work there, go to school or buy/sell property, although you can
inherit property. A PIO card is issued to anyone born in India or to
anyone with Indian (not sure if one or both) parents; valid for 15
years; visit as long as you like but for continuous stays of 6 months+
require additional paper filings with the local authorities; you can
not go to school but you can work and buy/sell property. The upcoming
Dual Citizenship will be granted only to people of Indian origin with
a foreign passport of certain countries (the United States, Canada,
England, the European Union, Australia, New Zealand and Singapore); it
is obviously valid for life or until you renounce; visit as often and
for as long as you like; work, study, hold property, do business; can
NOT work for the military or the government; can NOT vote or run for
public office.

8. Everything we do for him is our legal responsibility. (Someone has
suggested that he could plead ignorance and say that he does not know
that he has the 'other' passport. This is incorrect; until we act as
his guardians, anything he does or does not know is inadmissible; in
the eyes of the law, we as guardians are responsible for everything
that we do in his name).


[email protected] (Immigration Question) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > My wife and I are both Indian citizens with green cards. We have a son
    > who was born in California. Since the Indian embassy does not annotate
    > the mother's passport for a child any more, we are required to get a
    > passport for him so that he can travel with us to India and back.
    > Which passport should we get, Indian or American, since he is eligible
    > for both?
    >
    > As far as I can see, if he gets an American passport, we will have to
    > get an Indian visa for travel to India (we can get a multi-year,
    > multi-entry visa to reduce the hassle); if he gets an Indian passport,
    > he will need some sort of an American visa to travel back to the US.
    > Dual citizenship for Indians is still a work-in-progress. There is
    > also an emotional aspect to this: I WANT him to get an Indian passport
    > -- unless it causes major hassles for travelling back and forth to
    > India.
    >
    > What can be the possible downsides of getting a US Passport for him
    > down the road? His rights in India or here? If you have been through a
    > similar situation, please help. Thanks.

Immigration Question

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments and time. I have spoken
with two attorneys, twice with Immigration & Naturalization Service
(so that I could get two different reps' opinions), with the Indian
cosulate in San Francisco and with the Indian Embassy in Washington
DC. In an effort to help others, below is the summary of my research.
In conclusion, we are getting our son a US passport with a PIO card;
if you are reading this after December 31, 2004, you should probably
go for the dual-citizenship option because that law should have been
sorted out by then (more on dual citizenship in para 7 below).

Please understand that the notes below are based on my belief that I
should obey both the letter and the spirit of the laws of both India
and USA; I do not want to do anything which is even slightly
questionable.

1. Like all children born out of their parents' country of
citizenship, our son is eligible for citizenship both in the US as
well as in India (some have suggested here that his American
citizenship has higher preponderance since he was born here; this is
incorrect). We can make a choice for him for now, but he can override
that choice when he is 18. In any case, even after he is 18, he can
always switch citizenships for the rest of his life.

2. If we opt for an Indian passport for him, he will need a visa to
get back into the US (confirmed by INS; they suggested that he will
need to get a tourist visa). We can decide to initiate a green card
process for him (the Family & Children application) but there is a 5+
years wait on that. I want to clarify the misconception that he can
never get a US visa because he is a US citizen; this is incorrect; he
was born in the US but his citizenship is judged based on his passport
-- for example, if at age 18, he opts for an Indian passport, he will
be given a US visa even if he told the US consulate that he was born
in the USA. This last point was specifically confirmed with the INS.

3. We can not get both the Indian and American passports for him right
now (this is expected to change by the end of 2004). At the moment, it
is illegal for an Indian citizen to hold another passport. (It has
been suggested here that he can use one passport going to India and
another for returning to USA; this is illegal).

4. Children used to be listed on parents' passports. But due to the
need for increased security, this is not the case for Indian parents
any more. In fact, now, at the time of passport renewal, the parents
of Indian children with such notations are encouraged to get their
children their own passports.

5. Anyone can get a passport (for their appropriate country) at any
age, starting on day 1. (It is incorrect to say that the child has to
be 12 to get their own passport).

6. To travel back to India he can either get a multi-year, multiple
entry Visitor visa (takes 1-2 days to get) or a PIO (Person of Indian
Origin) card -- which takes 3-4 weeks. More on PIO card in the para
below.

7. Just a few words about the differences between an Indian Tourist
Visa, the PIO card and Dual Citizenship for Indians. An Indian Tourist
Visa allows you to visit for no more than six months at a time
(6-month extensions possible; you apply while in India); you can not
work there, go to school or buy/sell property, although you can
inherit property. A PIO card is issued to anyone born in India or to
anyone with Indian (not sure if one or both) parents; valid for 15
years; visit as long as you like but for continuous stays of 6 months+
require additional paper filings with the local authorities; you can
go to school, work and buy/sell property. The upcoming
Dual Citizenship will be granted only to people of Indian origin with
a foreign passport of certain countries (the United States, Canada,
England, the European Union, Australia, New Zealand and Singapore); it
is obviously valid for life or until you renounce; visit as often and
for as long as you like; work, study, hold property, do business; can
NOT work for the military or the civil services of any State or
Central governments; can NOT vote or run for public office.

8. Everything we do for him is our legal responsibility. (Someone has
suggested that he could plead ignorance and say that he does not know
that he has the 'other' passport. This is incorrect; until we act as
his guardians, anything he does or does not know is inadmissible; in
the eyes of the law, we as guardians are responsible for everything
that we do in his name).


[email protected] (Immigration Question) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > My wife and I are both Indian citizens with green cards. We have a son
    > who was born in California. Since the Indian embassy does not annotate
    > the mother's passport for a child any more, we are required to get a
    > passport for him so that he can travel with us to India and back.
    > Which passport should we get, Indian or American, since he is eligible
    > for both?
    >
    > As far as I can see, if he gets an American passport, we will have to
    > get an Indian visa for travel to India (we can get a multi-year,
    > multi-entry visa to reduce the hassle); if he gets an Indian passport,
    > he will need some sort of an American visa to travel back to the US.
    > Dual citizenship for Indians is still a work-in-progress. There is
    > also an emotional aspect to this: I WANT him to get an Indian passport
    > -- unless it causes major hassles for travelling back and forth to
    > India.
    >
    > What can be the possible downsides of getting a US Passport for him
    > down the road? His rights in India or here? If you have been through a
    > similar situation, please help. Thanks.

Joachim Feise

Immigration Question wrote on 4/7/2004 12:37:

    > DC. In an effort to help others, below is the summary of my research.

It doesn't help to repeat that.
I have debunked your "research" already.
Just one more note below.

    > was born in the US but his citizenship is judged based on his passport

As I've already stated, this is complete and utter BS!
US citizenship is based on the birth certificate.
Lots of US citizens do not even have a passport... What are they in your
opinion???

-Joe

Kabir

Quite a conundrum ;-)

You are right - if you do get an Indian passport, he'll need a visa to get
in United States. And once the dual citizenship with India works out, you
can apply for an US passport for him - since he is born here, he is a US
citizen.

Alternatively, you could get a US passport now and a PIO card for your
son. And when he is 21, he could get Indian citizenship based on his PIO
card. I am hoping by that time, dual citizenship issues would be ironed
out.

Hope this helps ...

Immigration Question wrote:

    > My wife and I are both Indian citizens with green cards. We have a son
    > who was born in California. Since the Indian embassy does not annotate
    > the mother's passport for a child any more, we are required to get a
    > passport for him so that he can travel with us to India and back.
    > Which passport should we get, Indian or American, since he is eligible
    > for both?
    > As far as I can see, if he gets an American passport, we will have to
    > get an Indian visa for travel to India (we can get a multi-year,
    > multi-entry visa to reduce the hassle); if he gets an Indian passport,
    > he will need some sort of an American visa to travel back to the US.
    > Dual citizenship for Indians is still a work-in-progress. There is
    > also an emotional aspect to this: I WANT him to get an Indian passport
    > -- unless it causes major hassles for travelling back and forth to
    > India.
    > What can be the possible downsides of getting a US Passport for him
    > down the road? His rights in India or here? If you have been through a
    > similar situation, please help. Thanks.

Eton_Rifle

I heard that only certain countries allow dual citizenship, I know the UK and Australia allow it, but I think that in India if you renounce your citizenship you REALLY renounce it unlike the UK and Oz.
Don't know how true that is but I came across it on my researching a while ago, you will want to double check though.

Joachim Feise

Kabir wrote on 4/7/2004 14:25:
    > Quite a conundrum ;-)
    >
    > You are right - if you do get an Indian passport, he'll need a visa to get
    > in United States.

And, as he has been told multiple times here, as a US citizen, the child
can *not* get any visa.
In fact, it is illegal for a US citizen to enter the US without a US passport
(except in a couple limited instances, as explained in this thread before.)

    > can apply for an US passport for him - since he is born here, he is a US
    > citizen.

Exactly. And that's why the child can't get a visa for the US. It is not hard
to understand...
US citizenship is not voluntary. Anybody born on US soil under US jurisdiction
is a US citizen, no buts and ifs...
Geez, this topic is really beaten to death by now...

-Joe

Sean

Eton_Rifle wrote:

    > I heard
    > that only certain countries allow dual citizenship, I know the UK and
    > Australia allow it, but I think that in India if you renounce your
    > citizenship you REALLY renounce it unlike the UK and Oz.
    > Don't know how
    > true that is but I came across it on my researching a while ago, you
    > will want to double check though.
    >
    >

Renouncing your citizenship of some countries is effectively
naturalisation in reverse, i.e., there are formal procedures to go
through. With India, if you take citizenship of a foreign country you
are automatically seen as renouncing your Indian citizenship.

Sean
[email protected]

Amanda

Joachim Feise <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Kabir wrote on 4/7/2004 14:25:
    > > Quite a conundrum ;-)
    > >
    > > You are right - if you do get an Indian passport, he'll need a visa to get
    > > in United States.
    >
    > And, as he has been told multiple times here, as a US citizen, the child
    > can *not* get any visa.
    > In fact, it is illegal for a US citizen to enter the US without a US passport
    > (except in a couple limited instances, as explained in this thread before.)
    >
    > > can apply for an US passport for him - since he is born here, he is a US
    > > citizen.
    >
    > Exactly. And that's why the child can't get a visa for the US. It is not hard
    > to understand...
    > US citizenship is not voluntary. Anybody born on US soil under US jurisdiction
    > is a US citizen, no buts and ifs...
    > Geez, this topic is really beaten to death by now...
    >
    > -Joe

Waht about the children of foreign diplomats born in US?

What I understood was that the children born (in US) to non-US
citizens can choose to get the citizenship of the parent's country for
the child if that country would allow it. May be that country also
allows the parent to decide for the child.

That doesn't mean their brith right to US citizenship is affected.

As far as the parent's bringing him back to US with *that* passport, I
don't know what procedure would be involved to enter US?

J. J. Farrell

"Immigration Question" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Thank you all for your thoughtful comments and time. I have spoken
    > with two attorneys, twice with Immigration & Naturalization Service
    > (so that I could get two different reps' opinions), with the Indian
    > cosulate in San Francisco and with the Indian Embassy in Washington
    > DC. In an effort to help others, below is the summary of my research.
    > In conclusion, we are getting our son a US passport with a PIO card;
    > if you are reading this after December 31, 2004, you should probably
    > go for the dual-citizenship option because that law should have been
    > sorted out by then (more on dual citizenship in para 7 below).

It is very unwise to take advice from CIS (used to be INS) reps on
the phone. They generally have limited knowledge, and are often
wrong - even more so than the inspectors at Port of Entry!

    > 1. Like all children born out of their parents' country of
    > citizenship, our son is eligible for citizenship both in the US as
    > well as in India (some have suggested here that his American
    > citizenship has higher preponderance since he was born here; this is
    > incorrect). We can make a choice for him for now, but he can override
    > that choice when he is 18. In any case, even after he is 18, he can
    > always switch citizenships for the rest of his life

This is wrong on several counts. Since the child was born in
the USA, unless you and your wife were accredited diplomats at
the time of the birth, then the child is a USA citizen. He isn't
eligible to be a US citizen, he simply is one. You have no say
in the matter. He may be able to renounce his US citizenship
when he comes of age, but I don't know the US law on this.

Whether or not he is also a citizen of another country, or is
eligible to become a citizen of another country, depends on
the laws of those countries. Different countries have different
laws. Whether or not you have a say in it depends on the laws
of the countries that claim your son as a citizen.

    > 2. If we opt for an Indian passport for him, he will need a visa to
    > get back into the US (confirmed by INS; they suggested that he will
    > need to get a tourist visa).

Your child is a US citizen according to the US constitution.
US law requires that US citizens must use a US passport to
enter the US, except for some cases of entering on a parent's
passport. US citizens are not eligible for US visas.

    > We can decide to initiate a green card
    > process for him (the Family & Children application) but there is a 5+
    > years wait on that.

This is incorrect. The child is a US citizen, and is therefore
not eligible for a Green Card.

    > I want to clarify the misconception that he can
    > never get a US visa because he is a US citizen; this is incorrect; he
    > was born in the US but his citizenship is judged based on his passport
    > -- for example, if at age 18, he opts for an Indian passport, he will
    > be given a US visa even if he told the US consulate that he was born
    > in the USA. This last point was specifically confirmed with the INS.

The child is a US citizen, and is not eligible for US visas.
When he comes of age, if he chooses to renounce his US
citizenship and the law allows him to do so, then he will no
longer be a US citizen. At that point he may be able to apply
for a US visa.

    > 3. We can not get both the Indian and American passports for him right
    > now (this is expected to change by the end of 2004). At the moment, it
    > is illegal for an Indian citizen to hold another passport. (It has
    > been suggested here that he can use one passport going to India and
    > another for returning to USA; this is illegal).

If that is the case, then you have difficulty staying legal.
The child is a US citizen, and US law requires US citizens
to use a US passport to enter the US, except (I believe) for
some cases like yours where the child can enter on his
parent's passport.

    > 4. Children used to be listed on parents' passports. But due to the
    > need for increased security, this is not the case for Indian parents
    > any more. In fact, now, at the time of passport renewal, the parents
    > of Indian children with such notations are encouraged to get their
    > children their own passports.

I'm not sure of the details, but I believe that a US-citizen
child of a non-US-citizen is allowed to enter the US on the
parent's passport under some circumstances. This might be one
way to stay within the law.

Kabir

Joachim Feise wrote:

    > Kabir wrote on 4/7/2004 14:25:
    > > Quite a conundrum ;-)
    > >
    > > You are right - if you do get an Indian passport, he'll need a visa to get
    > > in United States.
    > And, as he has been told multiple times here, as a US citizen, the child
    > can *not* get any visa.
    > In fact, it is illegal for a US citizen to enter the US without a US passport
    > (except in a couple limited instances, as explained in this thread before.)

This just doesn't make sense. Being born in US just gives him a right to get US
citizenship. He or his parents may chose to keep their own citizenship, if they
wish.

Take for example, a diplomat from Russia working in Russian embassy in United
States. If she has a baby in United states, I am sure she would want him to keep
Russian citizen and get a Russian passport and then she is going to get a "visa"
for her son if she ever travels, right????

What is so hard to understand?

    > > can apply for an US passport for him - since he is born here, he is a US
    > > citizen.
    > Exactly. And that's why the child can't get a visa for the US. It is not hard
    > to understand...
    > US citizenship is not voluntary. Anybody born on US soil under US jurisdiction
    > is a US citizen, no buts and ifs...
    > Geez, this topic is really beaten to death by now...
    > -Joe

Joachim Feise

Kabir said on 4/8/2004 7:42:
    >
    > This just doesn't make sense. Being born in US just gives him a right to get US
    > citizenship.

Geez, no.
Read the 14th amendment to the US constitution!
Anybody born in the US under US jurisdiction *has* US citizenship, automatically.
Why is that so hard to grasp???

    > He or his parents may chose to keep their own citizenship, if they
    > wish.
    >
    > Take for example, a diplomat from Russia working in Russian embassy in United
    > States. If she has a baby in United states, I am sure she would want him to keep
    > Russian citizen and get a Russian passport and then she is going to get a "visa"
    > for her son if she ever travels, right????

Diplomats are *not* under US jurisdiction, so the citizenship rule of the 14th
amendment does not apply!

    > What is so hard to understand?

Geez, you are the one who doesn't understand the rules...

-Joe

Rich Wales

Regarding 22 CFR 53.2(f) -- the regulation exempting children under
age 12 from having a US passport if they are included in an alien
parent's foreign passport and if other proof of the child's US
citizenship (such as a birth certificate) is available -- it's
probably advisable for anyone thinking of taking advantage of this
rule to check with the airline they plan to use, and make 100% sure
the airline is willing to respect this exception and allow the child
to board.

I've read in the past of at least one airline which has refused to
allow US-born children of Indian parents to board US-bound flights
via 22 CFR 53.2(f); the airline personnel insisted the child had to
have a US passport or he/she could not get on the plane, period.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Rich Wales

"Kabir" wrote:

> This just doesn't make sense. Being born in US just gives him
> a right to get US citizenship. He or his parents may choose to
> keep their own citizenship, if they wish.

Actually, as far as the US's citizenship laws are concerned, being
born in the US means a person has =automatic= and =mandatory= US
citizenship from birth. With only one exception (see below), the
parents' citizenship or legal status in the US does =not= matter;
even if the child's parents are in the US illegally, the child (if
born in the US) is still automatically a US citizen according to
US law.

It is also =NOT= a question of whether the child's parents want
their US-born child to be a US citizen or not. They don't have
a choice, and neither does the child -- at least, not until he's
grown up and can move to some other country and formally renounce
his US citizenship if he really wants to.

Now, it may well be (and frequently is) the case that a child born
in the US to non-US parents will also have, or be entitled to claim,
citizenship in the parents' country or countries. This would be in
addition to (=not= instead of) US citizenship -- in other words, the
child would be a "born dual" citizen, where each of two different
countries, each one acting on its own in accordance with its own law,
decides that the child is one of its citizens. But no matter whether
some other country claims the child as one of its own, that doesn't
affect the child's automatic US citizenship. Even if the other
country forbids dual citizenship and demands that the parents must
=not= allow the child to be considered a US citizen, the child is
still a US citizen, because the US's citizenship law says he is.

Note, BTW, that not every country in the world has a law saying that
any child born within its borders is a citizen. Switzerland, to
name just one example, confers citizenship at birth solely on the
basis of parentage; the only way to be born with Swiss citizenship
is to have a Swiss parent, and a child born in Switzerland to non-
Swiss parents is =not= a Swiss citizen (even if it happens that no
other country claims the child as a citizen and he's "stateless").

> Take for example, a diplomat from Russia working in Russian
> embassy in United States.

OK, now, if you're talking about a diplomat, things are different,
because the US law that says anyone born in the US is automatically
a US citizen contains an exception for people who are not "subject
to the jurisdiction" of the US -- meaning foreign diplomats and
their family members, who have "diplomatic immunity" from arrest
or punishment for breaking the law in the US. In other words, a
US-born child of a Russian (or any other foreign) diplomat is =not=
a US citizen. But that's the only exception.

> If she has a baby in United States, I am sure she would want
> him to keep Russian citizenship and get a Russian passport
> and then she is going to get a "visa" for her son if she ever
> travels, right????

If the Russian woman in question is not in the US as a diplomat,
then her US-born child will automatically have US citizenship as
far as the US is concerned. What the mother "would want" doesn't
matter. Depending on what Russia's citizenship law says, the
child may very possibly also be a citizen of Russia -- and again,
depending on what Russian law says, this could be the case even if
the mother didn't want her US-born child to have Russian citizenship.

A person (child or adult) with "dual" citizenship (i.e., with two
or more citizenships) is generally entitled -- and may be required
-- to possess two passports, one from each country. A child with
two citizenships, travelling between the two countries which claim
him as a citizen, will probably need to use a different passport
in order to enter (and perhaps also to leave) each country. For
example, a dual US/Russian citizen would (I assume) need to use a
Russian passport to enter and leave Russia, and a US passport in
order to re-enter the US, because each country cares only about
the fact that the person is one of its citizens and couldn't care
less about what any other country might think.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.