off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Old Sep 28th 2004, 3:44 pm
  #31  
Rich Wales
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Earlier, I wrote:

> > But note that Kent v. Dulles, 357 U.S. 116 (1958), dealt with
> > the US government's refusal to issue passports to Americans
> > who were suspected of Communist ties.

"HunterGreen" replied:

> However the ruling sounded a lot like it didn't have anything
> to do with communists, but more with the basic rights of every
> American. That's why I was wondering if it might be applicable.

This, I believe, illustrates why it's very important to go to the
actual ruling of the Supreme Court, and not depend on brief summaries
that may or may not accurately reflect what the court actually said.

The majority opinion written by the Supreme Court in Kent v. Dulles
(which, BTW, you can find online at findlaw.com) makes it clear that
the court was consciously sidestepping the overarching constitutional
issue of the right to travel. Rather, the court confined itself to
the narrow question of whether or not the State Department could
decide for itself what reasons justified a refusal to issue a pass-
port, or whether this kind of discretion was something that only
Congress could exercise.

In Kent v. Dulles, the Supreme Court noted that there had long been
only two main reasons for refusing to issue a US passport -- either
because the applicant was not a US citizen (or one of a limited
class of people who, though not citizens, owed allegiance to the
US), or else because the applicant was engaging in illegal activity
(such as trying to escape the law). The court held that the execu-
tive branch could not decide, on its own, to extend these reasons
to add Communist leanings to the grounds for refusing to issue a
passport; only Congress could do that.

The court explicitly declined to rule on the question of whether
Congress could constitutionally refuse to issue a passport to a
Communist, finding instead simply that Congress had not given that
sort of discretion to the Secretary of State. It's quite common,
BTW, for the Supreme Court to rule narrowly in this way, avoiding
sweeping pronouncements unless the circumstances of a specific case
force it to make such decisions.

So, again, I would suggest that Kent v. Dulles is not relevant to
the question of whether a person can or cannot be refused a US
passport on the grounds that he has been judged by the courts to
be in arrears on a child support obligation (and might therefore
be motivated to leave the US in order to escape the jurisdiction
of US courts).

Incidentally, when "HunterGreen" originally wrote:

> > > "In a 5-to-4 decision, the Court held that the right to
> > > travel is an inherent element of 'liberty' that cannot
> > > be denied to American citizens."

it should be noted that the actual quote from the court's opinion
read as follows: "The right to travel is a part of the 'liberty'
of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of
law under the Fifth Amendment." Remember, though, that the court
specifically said it didn't need to (and thus would not) rule
in this case on the question of whether limiting the right of a
Communist to get a US passport was constitutional or not. As a
result, anything in the Kent v. Dulles opinion about the constitu-
tional right to travel would fall into the realm of "dicta" --
background commentary that may be helpful to explain the court's
reasoning, but not part of the actual "holdings" or key points on
which the court ruled.

I don't know, of course, exactly where "HunterGreen" originally
found a reference to Kent v. Dulles, but I'll take this opportunity
to mention that some less than reputable "sources" of legal guidance
have been known to misuse court rulings -- by taking passages out
of context, misrepresenting dicta as if they were holdings, or even
making up "quotes" out of thin air -- in support of fringe theories
such as "you don't really need a driver's license" or "you don't
really need to pay taxes". It's crucial to track down what the
court actually said, and what the statement actually meant in the
context of the ruling.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
 
Old Sep 28th 2004, 5:16 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Originally Posted by Rich Wales
I don't know, of course, exactly where "HunterGreen" originally
found a reference to Kent v. Dulles, but I'll take this opportunity
to mention that some less than reputable "sources" of legal guidance
have been known to misuse court rulings -- by taking passages out
of context, misrepresenting dicta as if they were holdings, or even
making up "quotes" out of thin air -- in support of fringe theories
such as "you don't really need a driver's license" or "you don't
really need to pay taxes". It's crucial to track down what the
court actually said, and what the statement actually meant in the
context of the ruling.
I agree with you. But I have to say, don't take my question out of context either. I merely asked a lawyer on this newsgroup a question about this ruling. I didn't find a reference to it anywhere, I was just curious. I nowhere implied that this ruling would be applicable to the OP's case. I was very interested in this (=reason I asked the question in the first place), and I thank you for your reply, because it was very interesting to read. It should have been an OT thread in a way, I guess.

Elaine
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Old Sep 28th 2004, 5:50 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

PS - I'm still curious about something here though, but I'm afraid to even bring it up now because it seems that a lot of people read more into things than there is. When I ask a question it is a real question - not collecting ammo to gun someone down, or trying to get back-up for an opinion. If that's what I'm trying to do, I wouldn't disguise it as a question. I see that happening a lot though, so it doesn't surprise me if people think that I'm disguising stuff too... however I wish I was able to word what I'm trying to say better so I could distinguish myself from that. I guess I need to keep trying.

Elaine
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Old Sep 29th 2004, 5:51 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

"HunterGreen" wrote:

> I agree with you. But I have to say, don't take
> my question out of context either. . . .

Sorry if I overreacted. I just wanted to make sure people kept
in mind that a court ruling has to be studied carefully in order
to understand just how it may (or may not) apply to other cases.

> so it doesn't surprise me if people think that I'm
> disguising stuff too... however I wish I was able
> to word what I'm trying to say better . . . .

This is probably inevitable, given the nature of text communi-
cations such as e-mail and USENET.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
 
Old Oct 1st 2004, 8:33 am
  #35  
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Originally Posted by sunflwrgrl13
Wow! You mean that all citizens of EU countries must have a passport? Or do you just mean that all citizens must carry some form of id (like the one CPW mentioned)? If they're required to carry passports, that just seems so strange to me coming from the US (where only like 10% of the citizens have passports). Just goes to show the differences in the laws.
Some European countries require everyone to have some form of officially recognised ID - indeed, in some cases, the requirement is that the ID must be carried on the person at all times. This might take the form of an official national ID card, which all citizens must have - it doesn't follow that everyone has to carry a passport everywhere (and, as you imply, there is generally no legal requirement even to possess a passport).

For many visitors, however, the only form of appropriate ID will be their passport. For example, the UK does not issue ID cards (yet!), so if a British person is required to produce satisfactory identification in, say, Italy, the passport is likely to be the best (or only) option.

The UK has no requirement that people should carry, or even possess, official ID, although as we know the government is seriously talking about changing that. There was similar talk in Australia back in the mid-1980s, I believe, but the idea was so unpopular that the government felt unable to pursue it. The idea will be unpopular in the UK too, but of course the security climate is very different now from what it was 20 years ago, so the active opposition to any such proposals might be more muted.
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Old Oct 1st 2004, 8:54 am
  #36  
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Originally Posted by inquisitive40
As far as my recollection goes, Ireland would have no problems either of traveling within the entire EU without a passport EXCEPT at the time Britain did not want it and so because of the location of Ireland it was also deemed if Britain did not accept it then Irish would also need to present passports on entering "mainland Europe" .

Patrick
Yes, that's correct, I believe. The UK did not wish to become part of the Schengen area for travel purposes (although it has since signed up to some of the Schengen documents, such as those connected with cross-border policing). Because Ireland and the UK form a Common Travel Area, this meant that Ireland either had to remain outside the Schengen area or else cease to be part of the Common Travel Area with the UK. The latter course of action would have been a significant nuisance to many people who travel between the UK and Ireland - two countries that are socially and economically still very closely linked - and, perhaps more importantly, it would also have meant imposing immigration border controls for the first time between Northern Ireland and the Republic, which might well have had politically and sociologically disastrous consequences for both countries.

Denmark also did not sign up to Schengen at first, principally because it was part of the Nordic Passport Union, which provided passport-free travel between Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and the Faeroe Islands (a self-governing part of Denmark), a provision that the Danes considered more important than passport-free travel to other parts of Europe. When Sweden and Finland joined the EU in the mid-1990s, the balance of power in this discussion shifted somewhat, and of course Norway and Iceland now form part of the Schengen area, even though they are not in the EU, thereby enabling the Nordic Passport Union to be effectively preserved within a wider common travel zone. In fact, the Nordic countries still regard the Nordic Passport Union as the primary provision whereby citizens of those countries are not subject to immigration checks of any sort when travelling within the Nordic lands; the Schengen agreements are a sort of 'added extra'.
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Old Oct 1st 2004, 8:59 am
  #37  
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

now i'm not positive but he should beable to do one of these, but again its only speculation.....he could take leave in route of his deployment and have his oders amended to show the leave destination(your families country) and be able to travel on his military id and the orders. another possibility that they may do in addition to amending these orders is to issue him a "no fees" passport much like they offer to military dependants , i know i had this option with my children when they were born. despite that i opted for a regualar passport and payed the fees so i could have the freedom of travel , as well as not being identified as military. the one thing that he could do(which was previously mentioned) is contact the legal representative in his deployed unit, or the jag, which may be the same person..despite the fact that i'm active duty myself, i dont have an appropriate knowledge of legal maters, probably not enough to be offering advice...but hey, what percentage of this forum truly would, with exception to our friendly, helpful, and charitable immagration lawyers. hopefully in all these posts you might find some option that will work. good luck with this ugly situation, i certainly hope i'm never faced with it. but we all have our problems right? good luck and tell the hubby to get off his butt and do some research through his available resources, there's always a way.
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Old Oct 1st 2004, 2:14 pm
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Originally Posted by its_karl
now i'm not positive but he should beable to do one of these, but again its only speculation.....he could take leave in route of his deployment and have his oders amended to show the leave destination(your families country) and be able to travel on his military id and the orders. another possibility that they may do in addition to amending these orders is to issue him a "no fees" passport much like they offer to military dependants , i know i had this option with my children when they were born. despite that i opted for a regualar passport and payed the fees so i could have the freedom of travel , as well as not being identified as military. the one thing that he could do(which was previously mentioned) is contact the legal representative in his deployed unit, or the jag, which may be the same person..despite the fact that i'm active duty myself, i dont have an appropriate knowledge of legal maters, probably not enough to be offering advice...but hey, what percentage of this forum truly would, with exception to our friendly, helpful, and charitable immagration lawyers. hopefully in all these posts you might find some option that will work. good luck with this ugly situation, i certainly hope i'm never faced with it. but we all have our problems right? good luck and tell the hubby to get off his butt and do some research through his available resources, there's always a way.
Hi:

Sigh.

OP's hubby is in the military. I presume he has that nice "green card" military ID.

The US is part of NATO
He is depoloyed within NATO
UK is part of NATO

"The answer is easy if you take it logically." Paul Simon
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Old Oct 1st 2004, 3:22 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Not sure that the NATO ID card can be used for entry to the UK though, especially on a non-military-related visit. A passport or an identity card issued to a citizen of an EU/EEA country will be required.

Originally Posted by Folinskyinla
Hi:

Sigh.

OP's hubby is in the military. I presume he has that nice "green card" military ID.

The US is part of NATO
He is depoloyed within NATO
UK is part of NATO

"The answer is easy if you take it logically." Paul Simon
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Old Oct 2nd 2004, 2:09 am
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Originally Posted by Folinskyinla
Hi:

Sigh.

OP's hubby is in the military. I presume he has that nice "green card" military ID.

The US is part of NATO
He is depoloyed within NATO
UK is part of NATO

"The answer is easy if you take it logically." Paul Simon

My Husband is a USC born and bred in this great country...not naturalized..and he does posess the new geneva conventions military ID card.

So are you saying that it may be quite possible that my husband will be able to travel to the UK?...

He is planning a visit to the netherlands while he is temporarily stationed in germany (on route to his deployment station) to visit his grandfathers grave in the american military cemetary in margraten, his grandfather was killed during WW2, and my hubby carries his grandfathers name...it will be a very emotional moment for him, and I wish I could be there for him *sigh* but alas until my AOS is over i cannot do that for him

I will look up the NATO SOFA that you mentioned earlier and see what it says, thanks for everyones input and advice on this matter, it has given me some hope...even if in the end it doesn't work out, we have at least tried
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Old Oct 4th 2004, 7:30 am
  #41  
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Originally Posted by hopelessinks
He is planning a visit to the netherlands
Hi Dorothy ,

Since you specifically mentioned the Netherlands now (and I am from the NL) I decided to make a few phonecalls to find out what he needs as ID over here. I'm sorry to tell you that indeed he DOES need a passport. That is the only accepted form of ID for foreigners.
He will only be able to travel on his NATO ID if he is on a military purpose trip with travelling orders (don't know the excat English word but that's how it would literally translate) from his 'boss' (whatever it's called in the army, lol).

I talked with the Dutch version of USCIS, the military police and the ministry of justice to make absolutely sure and got the same answer everywhere. Now he may be able to cross the border without a passport, but by law he has to carry a valid ID and the only valid ID for him is a passport.
He could take the chance, and they might not check him, and if they do nothing might happen, but he will be breaking the law just by being in the NL without carrying a passport.

Hope this helps . (Heck I sure hope this helps because I've been on the phone for almost 30 minutes, LOL!)

Elaine
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Old Oct 4th 2004, 4:09 pm
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Originally Posted by HunterGreen
Hi Dorothy,

Since you specifically mentioned the Netherlands now (and I am from the NL) I decided to make a few phonecalls to find out what he needs as ID over here. I'm sorry to tell you that indeed he DOES need a passport. That is the only accepted form of ID for foreigners.
He will only be able to travel on his NATO ID if he is on a military purpose trip with travelling orders (don't know the excat English word but that's how it would literally translate) from his 'boss' (whatever it's called in the army, lol).

I talked with the Dutch version of USCIS, the military police and the ministry of justice to make absolutely sure and got the same answer everywhere. Now he may be able to cross the border without a passport, but by law he has to carry a valid ID and the only valid ID for him is a passport.
He could take the chance, and they might not check him, and if they do nothing might happen, but he will be breaking the law just by being in the NL without carrying a passport.

Hope this helps. (Heck I sure hope this helps because I've been on the phone for almost 30 minutes, LOL!)

Elaine
HI Elaine

thanks for going to all that trouble for me...I really do appreciate it!..well hopefully if that is the case my husband will be able to get 'orders' cut for his R&R to allow him to travel to the NL...well here's hoping anyway...we are going to have to do some more digging...and real quick!! LOL

Thanks again Elaine
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Old Oct 4th 2004, 4:34 pm
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Default Re: off topic..travelling in europe w/o passport!

Originally Posted by hopelessinks
HI Elaine

thanks for going to all that trouble for me...I really do appreciate it!..well hopefully if that is the case my husband will be able to get 'orders' cut for his R&R to allow him to travel to the NL...well here's hoping anyway...we are going to have to do some more digging...and real quick!! LOL

Thanks again Elaine
I did some more digging and followed up on something that Mr F mentioned about the Nato Sofa:

Passports and Status of Forces identification


Status determines what documents one carries
by Gregory Hand
Stuttgart Law Center



Military members are exempt from the requirement to carry a passport when traveling within NATO countries.


When traveling between NATO countries, military members must carry their I.D. card, as well as temporary duty orders or a leave or pass form signed by proper authority.

When carrying official weapons or ammunition, they must also have NATO travel orders whenever they cross an international border entering into or transiting a NATO country.

When traveling to non-NATO countries, military members must have a passport or visa as required by the country to which they are traveling.

Individuals assigned to positions or units with missions to deploy to other countries, which require passports, should have a passport


I copied this straight from a website that talks about the nato Sofa thingy!
http://home.mannheim.army.mil/news/SOFA2003.htm

I also looked up which countires are part of Nato:
Belgium
Bulgaria
Canada
Czech Rep Denmark
Estonia France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Turkey
United Kingdom
United States
http://www.nato.int/structur/countries.htm

so hopefully when we have looked into this a little father, my hubby shouldn't have too much trouble travelling within europe without a passport, as long as he has the proper ID (military) and supporting documents...fingers crossed!

Last edited by hopelessinks; Oct 4th 2004 at 4:37 pm.
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