PizzaMan

Hi

Could really do with some advice on best way to proceed. My wife (Vietnamese married in 23/10/13 been in UK on Spouse visa since 15/4/14) is expecting our first child on 8/11/15. She is desperate for her mother (baby’s grandmother) to be with us for birth. Her mother’s visa has been rejected, full letter is below but seems to come down to fact they cannot be sure she will return to Vietnam (“I cannot be satisfied that you are travelling to the UK as a genuine visitor or intend to leave on completion of your visit”).

She has very genuine reason to visit UK supported by letter from midwife, stating due date and requesting they “consider allowing her mother to visit UK to be with Van and support her”

Refusal say’s “you have failed to provide evidence in support of your employment and income” (which is incorrect, we did provide evidence of employment). Letter seems to be saying because cannot prove has job we cannot be sure you will go back. She has a letter (in Vietnamese) stamped by local government saying she is a market trader and farmer, submitted along with English translated and as part of application (we listed her as SELF-EMPLOYED MARKET TRADER AND FARMER on Visa application).
She does not declare income/pay tax but that normal for low earning self-employed person, she has £1,536 in bank, cannot prove where it came from, we gave her some, but substantial amount genuinely came from her own earnings, but she only placed money in bank recently (kept as cash in house). It’s not like the UK, she (and every other small trader) cannot prove income.

Not sure how you can ever truly prove you have intention to leave UK, but she certainly has no desire/intention of staying. She does not speak any English, Has 4 daughters 3 of whom are in Vietnam, one is 13 years old living with her and listed as “DEPENDENT” on visa application form (the other two are older she has 4 grandchildren in Vietnam).
She and her husband own their own house/small holding/farm, (we included ownership paperwork for this with application, it’s in Husbands name but this is normal), We also included their marriage certificate and the “family paperwork” which show who is family and how related (and picture of family together).

She cannot leave Vietnam for long, only reason we can visit for 3 months is quite time of year on farm (winter) and needs to return for busy trading time (Vietnamese “TET”/Lunar new year on 8/2/16 (like our Christmas/new year) needs to return few weeks before this as busiest time for her market stall.
I also included return flight tickets(18/10/15-17/1/16) in application, I know advice is not to purchase this in advance but I have brought non-transferable/refundable flight tickets. Thought this would help prove intention to return.

Not sure what to do next, think there is no right to appeal? I believe there is a factual error in there reply (“you have failed to provide evidence in support of your employment ” when this was provided) so think best course of action is ask Entry Clearance Manager for reconsideration?

Other option is resubmit a fresh application, but not sure what do differently we have already provided evidence she has two jobs, that is genuine reason for visit (birth of grandchild), That she has 13 year old dependant daughter living with her and her husband in house/farm they own and extended family in Vietnam.

I ideally what a route that get her Visa sorted before in enough time to catch 18/10/15 flight and baby due 5/11/15…


REFUSAL OF VISIT VISA
Your application for a visit Visa to the United Kingdom has been refused ...how your application was considered .....In deciding whether you meet the requirements of appendix :immigration rules for visitors, I have considered
*your application and any additional relevant information
*your immigration history
THE DECISION.
I have refused your application for a visit visa because I am not satisfied that you meet the requirements of paragraph 4.2-10 of appendix V: immigration rules for visitors because
You have applied to spend three months in the united kingdom visiting that your daughter and her spouse and whilst I acknowledge the importance of maintaining family contact it is the intentions of the applicant that are paramount when considering any application.
You state in your visa application form you have been self employed since 1995 earning 6,000,000VND per mouth £173 (current exchange rate 1-34555VND) however you have provided no evidence in support of this. You state that you son-in -law is to bear the cost of your trip to the UK and the cost personally to you will be £400, in support of this you have submitted evidence of your sponsors funds and your own. I note the balance in your account on 03/09/2015 was 53622000VND given you have failed to provide evidence in support of your employment and income it is unclear where these funds have originated from and I cannot therefore be satisfied that this is a true reflection of your visit I cannot be satisfied with your circumstances in Vietnam.
It is your responsibility to satisfy me that your personal circumstances in Vietnam are such that if granted leave to enter , you will comply with all of the conditions attached to any such leave of any family ties, employment, income, savings, property or other assets in Vietnam which causes me to question your intentions in travelling to the UK
In light of the above I cannot be satisfied that you are travelling to the UK as a genuine visitor or intend to leave on completion of your visit
FUTURE APPLICATIONS
Any future UK visa applications you make will be considered on their individual merits, however you are likely to be refused unless:
-your personal circumstance change significantly between now and your next application
-you provide compelling new evidence with your next application

I also included following statement on Visa sponsor letter :-
“I understand that I will be standing as sponsor and that my reputation as a sponsor will be damaged if she does not abide by their visa conditions, including returning to their home country at the end of the family visitor visa. As my Wife will be applying to extend her Visa on 16/10/16 you can be sure I will ensure the visa conditions are met so my reputation as a sponsor is upheld.” and more than ample evidence of my earning/ saving and ability to accommodation.)

scot47

Have you seen your MP ?

PizzaMan

Was one of the options I was considering, not sure if need to be my MP. MP in neighboring constituency is my cousin...

We only got letter today, was no one around with ability to scan or take picture and email to us and she does not speak English so typed it to so we could translate! Will get proper copy of letter tomorrow and want strategy in place my Monday, going to do what ever takes to get sorted...

formula

That's not what they want. Getting a visa is a tick box exercise. Tick the boxes and she gets a visa.



You need to address all the refusal points they made and then apply again.

She needs to provide the evidence to prove that what she claims in her application is true. All visa applicants have to do this.

When you do that and her visitor visa is granted, don't forget to also get full health insurance for her. You probably already realise that but better to say it and be sure. On another forum a poster didn't get insurance for his father's visit, he had a stoke while in the UK and left without paying his thirty thousand plus bill. The NHS took the son to court for his father's bill and won.

BritInParis

If you think evidence you have provided has been overlooked you can apply for an administrative review by the ECM if that's an option open to you - the refusal letter should state if this is the case. Otherwise follow formula's advice and reapply.

PizzaMan

Thank you very much everyone for advice, still not sure what is best. Have written below to my cousin who is MP, may sound like have decided what to do but below is only one route.

Disadvantage of on MP route is cannot submit new evidence which I would if reapplying, but as as documented below we have no way to prove her income level or where the money in back came from (can prove £400 from us)


Hi ****

*** bit of family chat****

I know it’s lot to ask as you are not my MP (which is Rt Hon ****** MP) but would be really grateful of any help you could offer.

I am sure you know my wife is pregnant, very excited, our little boy is due on 5/11/15. My wife is desperate for her mother to come over from Vietnam to be there for the birth and meet the baby and lend emotional support and give advice as she does not yet know many people/mothers in UK and is nervous about bring up a child with limited support network around her in a strange country. (her mother planned to visit us just for under 3 months)

Her mother’s Visa application has just been rejected. This if very frustrating as they have clearly made a mistake and not considered all of the evidence. We provided 4 out of 5 things they said we did not supply and the other one is not necessary.

Unfortunately there is no longer any right to appeal there decision which is crazy given they have clearly made factual mistakes. However they will review at MP’s request if it’s and “erroneous decision” or they “have made an error” (see the last page on https://informationformps.homeoffice...mily-visit.pdf, I also believe there is “compelling compassionate circumstances” for Visa to be reconsidered)

The important bit of the refusal letter seems to be:-
“You have provided no evidence of any family ties, employment, income, savings, property or other assets in Vietnam which causes me to question your intentions in travelling to the UK
In light of the above I cannot be satisfied that you are travelling to the UK as a genuine visitor or intend to leave on completion of your visit”

We provided lots of evidence including below:-
We included her mother’s marriage certificate, “family register” (official document which shows she has been living with her husband for 30 years and they have a 13 year old daughter living with them who we listed as “dependent” child on visa application form and Family picture’s, This all officially documented and translated (like all the following evidence) but they state “no evidence of any family ties” has been provided…

We also included letter stamped by local government saying she is a market trader and farmer (with 3,000 square meter cultivated area). This matches exactly what we put on Visa application (evidence of employment)

Income is the only think we struggle to prove (see below)

We included statements which show she has over £1500 in bank (more than average Vietnamese person earns in a year), they even quoted this amount in their refusal letter (but did question source as she cannot prove earnings) so not sure why they say we provide no evidence of saving?

Included “house holder agreement” which is official document that show they own property where they live AND farm (property in her husband’s name but that is normal and included marriage certificate and listed it as her family address on application). I think this covers “property or other assets”

The intention and genuineness of her visit was clearly documented in “sponsor” letter from myself and letter from midwife, stating due date and requesting they “consider allowing her mother to visit UK to be with Van and support her”

I would not risk my reputation as sponsor if was not sure she was going back to Vietnam as it would risk my wife’s ability to stay in UK (she is on a spouse Visa which lead to residency if she (and I as her sponsor) comply with rules) and included following on her mother sponsor letter
“I understand that I will be standing as sponsor and that my reputation as a sponsor will be damaged if she does not abide by their visa conditions, including returning to their home country at the end of the family visitor visa. As my Wife will be applying to extend her Visa on 16/10/16 you can be sure I will ensure the visa conditions are met so my reputation as a sponsor is upheld.”

We also supplied return plane tickets as part of application to show she intends to return, she is due to flight to UK on 17/10/15 and return to Vietnam on 16/1/16, non-flexible/ refundable flights (thought we had clear cut case and would be definite yes to Visa on our evidence…)

The only thing we struggle to prove is her income (they did question her income and source of the money in bank elsewhere in letter). She earns about £173 per month (which is reasonable income in rural Vietnam) from farm/market but has no way to prove this, they have no banks in small village where they live and they keep savings as cash (or even in livestock, which they build up and sell when needed!) they do not do tax returns for small businesses in Vietnam…. We gave her £400 but the rest came from herself but was only deposited in bank few weeks before Visa application (money came from sale of livestock and saving but no way to prove this).

This is all perfectly normal in Vietnam, not being able to prove her exact income level is not reason to say she is not genuine visitor with intention to return, we did provide proof she is working, is married and living with husband (for 30 years) with a 13 year old child dependant on her, has good savings and owns house/farm with her husband. They also accepted that I as her sponsor had statutory funds to cover her trip.

This is reasonable level of evidence she has ties to Vietnam that was provided with the application but was not considered. (“Insufficient evidence” is a separate category they clearly state evidence “not provided” so they did not consider it)

It’s quite normal for Entry Clearance Officers to fail to consider positive evidence, was found to be case in 14% of rejections http://icinspector.independent.gov.u...bal-Review.pdf), so frustrating we have no way to appeal unless an MP intervenes.

“No evidence of any family ties, employment, income, savings, property or other assets in Vietnam” and “you have failed to provide evidence in support of your employment and income it is unclear where these funds have originated from” where the only negative factors mentioned in rejection letter.

I am very happy to supply rejection letter and any evidence if anything you may be able to do to help. Our baby due on 5/11/15 so not much time get this sorted and would really appreciate anything you can do.

Many thanks
***** *****