George James

I'm hoping somebody can shed some light on the following issue. I was born outside of the UK to parents also born outside of the UK but all of us holders of UK passports. My great great grandad moved out to south america in the mid 19th century and continuously to me we have all held full UK passports. I lived in the UK from 1977 to 1993 staying abroad after that time. I still have a full valid UK passport but was wondering if due to the above history I am eligible to loose it unless I spend time in the UK? Also if I have children abroad can I try and get a UK passport or in todays world would that really be pushing things a bit too far?

JAJ

Residence outside the United Kingdom does not cause loss of British citizenship.

Assuming your passport says "British citizen" you are probably a British citizen by descent but that is not clear from the information you provide. If you want clarification please provide the following:

- when were you born? (year is enough)
- what country were you born in?
- where were your parents and grandparents born?

Also
- when and where were your children born?
- Are you married to a British citizen?

The answers will likely determine whether your children are British or not.

George James

Thank you very much JAJ.

Yes my passport says British Citizen, I was born in 1967, in Argentina and so were my parents and grandparents. I do not have children but intend to with an australian whose mother is British and currently holds an ancestry visa.

Please let me know if this is not enough information

JAJ

Interesting. My guess is that your birth was registered (allowing you to become a Citizen of the UK & Colonies) under section 5(1)(b) of the British Nationality Act 1948 within one year of when you were born. [this exemption to the limitation on passing British nationality through the generations was only available to those born in non-Commonwealth countries before 1983].

And the reason you are a British citizen is probably because of the following:

- you moved to the United Kingdom in 1977,
- presumably were granted settlement (Indefinite Leave to Remain) before 1983,
- and based on that + 5 years residence before 1 January 1983, you automatically acquired a Right of Abode in the U.K.
- as a Citizen of the UK & Colonies (CUKC) with Right of Abode, you became a British citizen on 1 January 1983.

However, under section 14(b)(i) of the British Nationality Act 1981, since you were a CUKC by descent, you became a British citizen by descent on 1.1.1983. Unless one of your parents was in U.K. recruited Crown Service.

(Interestingly, had you arrived on or after 1 January 1978 and/or were granted settlement in 1983 or later, you would have become a British Overseas Citizen on 1.1.1983 and could then have been registered as a British citizen under section 4 of the 1981 Act - this would have made you British otherwise than by descent).

Do you have a copy of your British consular birth registration?


Anyway, based on the fact that you appear to be a British citizen by descent there are a few supplementary questions:

- where do you plan to have your children born?; and
- was the mother of your Australian girlfriend born in Britain?

George James

Thank you again JAJ for your enlightening reply.

I have never seen or heard of a copy of my British consular birth registration but will have to ask. As per the details of aquiring citizenship, as a child only ever really got to see the cover and have my photo taken so unaware of the passage to citizenship but also shall investigate.

Partners Mother was born on Miri Oilfield in Sarawak Borneo during the war operated by Shell at the time and Grandfather was one of the last out and had to destroy the oilfields. He was born in the UK and wife in Australia.

Children will most likely be born in Australia..

From the information I have been able to provide, can you see a danger of loss of citizenship due to not living in the uk on a permanent basis for quite a long time now? (quite a galling thought for me as although I have lived in many countries I feel more British than anything else and my family all lives in the UK, and if there is a danger I might, would like to take action to avoid that eventuality).

Once again thank you very much...

JAJ

If you cannot track down a copy of your consular birth certificate, you can contact the GRO:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ce...s-overseas.asp

If it turns out you don't have one, then you must have acquired British nationality another way and if this is the case then you might be a British citizen otherwise than by descent.

You should have records other than your passport proving your British citizenship, otherwise you would be in a mess if your passport is lost. Same goes for records about your residence and settlement in Britain in 1977-93 (do you have these?).


So it's clear that your future spouse isn't a British citizen because her mother was only British by descent.

Was her U.K. born grandfather born in Northern Ireland, by any chance?

Once again - you will not lose your British citizenship.

However, you should be aware that children you have born in Australia will not automatically be British citizens if you are a British citizen by descent.

See: http://britishexpats.com/wiki/Britis...hip_by_Descent

George James

Flabberghasted.... and thank you for allaying my fears as regards my own UK citizenship

Will pick my Dad's brains and delve into his old filing cabinet.

What type of records other than Passport/ certified copy of passport can be used to show British citizenship (National Insurance Number, School reports, University Degree, Bank statements, Driving licence, Vehicle registrations etc??)

Partners grandfather was born in Kent.

"However, you should be aware that children you have born in Australia will not automatically be British citizens if you are a British citizen by descent." Are there steps to follow to obtain citizenship for them whilst abroad or is the only way residence for 3 yrs in the UK?

Can I plant a tree in your name?

JAJ

If you were to need to re-prove your British citizenship from scratch you'd need:

- your consular birth certificate; and
- evidence of having been granted settlement in the United Kingdom prior to 1983; and
- evidence of 5 years residence in the United Kingdom prior to 1983.

All this may exist on your old passport application file but they may have lost (or decided to throw out) all the records, so you cannot rely on it.

In the meantime - take good care of your passport and any expired passports you have.


The wiki article in the previous post explains the options.

Section 3(2) registration won't be possible as your future child wouldn't have a British born or naturalised grandparent. Section 3(5) registration would work, but child would need to live in Britain for 3 years before age 18.

If you have children born in Britain then they would automatically be British.

On the other hand - if their future is in Australia, then Australian citizenship is likely the most important thing for them to have.

Do you still have your Argentine citizenship?

George James

Dear JAJ you have been very kind with all your advice.

You have dampened my main fear which was loss/ downgrading of my full British Citizenship to British Subject or BOC status, but I am clear now that this is not possible.

I will get a file together just to have as back up in case I ever loose my passport.

And yes I do have dual nationality, as a just in case measure as you never know what can happen in the world.

Once again thank you very much you have been very very helpful. I had never before visited a forum and am quite taken aback by the fruits of modern conectivity.

JAJ

One further thing you should know is that a future acquisition of Australian citizenship would not cause loss of British citizenship.

If you're an Argentine citizen as well would you want to keep that for the long term, and/or have any future children registered as Argentine citizens?

George James

Thank you JAJ for your reply, and I presume that the answer to my worry on the posible erosion of UK citizenship is that this cannot happen unless I lose my passport and cannot come up with the necesarry documentation you mentioned above in order to reapply.

As per dual nationality for future kids, taking into consideration how fast the winds of change can alter where is safe/ unsafe to live, my outlook is that it is better to have an extra option than not to, so if I can have 2 or 3 nationalities for them I think its worth the effort.

JAJ

And even then you would still be a British citizen - you'd just have problems proving it and might even have to go to court. So look after your passports ...

If born in Australia, they will of course be Australian citizens (as a parent will be Australian). You should be able to register them as Argentine citizens too, but you should investigate first what obligations this may carry (such as military service).

If they are Argentine citizens, then Australia cannot give them consular protection in Argentina.

As for whether you would lose Argentine citizenship upon becoming an Australian citizen, this is not completely clear from the limited information online. However, it appears that you would not have to prove you are a non-citizen of the host country in order to renew your Argentine passport, which is a good start. You'll need to do your own research to know more:
http://www.embassyofargentina.us/en/consular/news.htm

George James

Thank you very much JAJ, your advice has been invaluable, much appreciated

George James

Hello JAJ, if you are still available for comment, I spoke to my sister, born of the same parents also in Argentina but almost 3 yrs older. She lived in UK from 1977 to 1980, spending the next 2 yrs at school in Europe, and then back to the UK for 11 yrs from 1983 to 1994, and living in SA America from then on. She is also a British Citizen but is curious as to whether those apparently vital 2 yrs away from 1980-82 endanger her UK citizenship even though she lived the next 11 yrs fully in the UK? She also still has a valid UK passport...

JAJ

Section 2(1)(d) of the Immigration Act 1971 as in force immediately before 1983 stated:

"A person is under this Act to have the right of abode right of abode, in the United Kingdom if

...

(C) he is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies who has at any time been settled in the United Kingdom and Islands and had at that time (and while such a citizen) been ordinarily resident there for the last five years or more."

"settled" - generally means, having been granted Indefinite Leave to Remain

"ordinarily resident" - generally means where was "home" at the time, not pure physical presence. See the "Ordinary Residence" document at:
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/sit.../nisec2gensec/

All this should have been looked at when your sister got her first British citizen passport in the 1980s, but perhaps it wasn't?