How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

Old Mar 10th 2015, 5:10 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

Originally Posted by Impreza View Post
Exactly, so if I were OP, I would explain all of this in the application.
Or just include her full birth certificate as per the instructions. If the OP doesn't then she will be asked for it anyway.
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Old Mar 10th 2015, 6:06 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Very kind of them but I doubt this would be easy to replicate elsewhere.


.

Not out of kindness at all. A necessity.

It's the services they need to provide to enable Brits to live there!
Also at a high cost.
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Old Mar 10th 2015, 7:08 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

IMO, I think its both annoying & awkward for someone that has 'citizenship by descent' that their ONLY proof of 'British' is a passport.

As Britin Paris posted in #4 & #9 the 'full birth certificate' of the person born abroad is the only other document that would validate a person as British [even by descent] by the fact they are the child of a British born citizen.

Its not a 'eh! - look, I have a letter or a registration document' to show I am British citizen. That is only when a passport is provided & that the passport is current & not expired.

Our daughter has asked this question too me, I referred her to this thread. Its all about the passport, which one is unable to have unless one is a British citizen.

A formal 'status letter' to go with the passport is something the HO is lacking to to give to a 'British citizen by descent' for those that have not gone the 'registration' route, which is what the OP is I think looking for?

So my question is, why cant each & every 'British citizen by descent' be registered as a British citizen, much like the UKM, or at least have the 'status letter'?

I would think (to be corrected on this point) that a British passport holder (citizenship by descent) if they do not renew the passport, then its likely back to the 'foreign passport' as a travel document to enter the UK as a visitor, or if they wish to remain in the UK they would need a residence visa of some sort?

I know lots of Brit born that live outside the UK that never renew their British passports once they become citizens of their new country

Of course, if its possible (question for Britinparis) will the 'UK border folks' accept the holder of an expired British passport entry & to remain in the UK visa free?

I think BritinParis provide the response for the OP in post 4 & 9, but again, IMO some form of status letter would be ideal

Last edited by not2old; Mar 10th 2015 at 8:11 pm.
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Old Mar 11th 2015, 3:42 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

unanswered questions from post#18 if someone could please answer for me

Thanks

1.

A. can a Brit born presenting both their expired British passport and with a valid commonwealth passport entering through the passport control, be allowed to, waved through, or given 'indefinite leave to remain' without having their commonwealth passport stamped 'the usual ' 6 mths, must not work, no access to public funds'?

B. can a Brit 'by descent' presenting both their expired British passport and with a valid commonwealth passport entering through the passport control be allowed to, waved through, or given 'indefinite leave to remain' without having their commonwealth passport stamped 'the usual ' 6 mths, must not work, no access to public funds'?

2. for the British by descent' individual with a VALID CURRENT British passport, can someone suggest if there is way that they can get a 'status letter', a 'certificate' or some other way to say or state that they are British, other than just by having a British passport?

On that, it seems too me discussed in post #4 & #post 9, that anyone considering applying for a first 'British passport' by descent, should prior to doing it, get the NS 'status letter', that way they'd have something other than the passport?

Would appreciate any comments, suggestions, recommendations or ideas on this from anyone in the know or who has gone this route?
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Old Mar 11th 2015, 11:04 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

Originally Posted by not2old View Post
IMO, I think its both annoying & awkward for someone that has 'citizenship by descent' that their ONLY proof of 'British' is a passport.

As Britin Paris posted in #4 & #9 the 'full birth certificate' of the person born abroad is the only other document that would validate a person as British [even by descent] by the fact they are the child of a British born citizen.

Its not a 'eh! - look, I have a letter or a registration document' to show I am British citizen. That is only when a passport is provided & that the passport is current & not expired.

Our daughter has asked this question too me, I referred her to this thread. Its all about the passport, which one is unable to have unless one is a British citizen.

A formal 'status letter' to go with the passport is something the HO is lacking to to give to a 'British citizen by descent' for those that have not gone the 'registration' route, which is what the OP is I think looking for?

So my question is, why cant each & every 'British citizen by descent' be registered as a British citizen, much like the UKM, or at least have the 'status letter'?
Probably as that would be extremely expensive to operate, bureaucratic and for the most part, unnecessary. Consular birth certificates are an option for those who do want formal confirmation of their citizenship for overseas births other than those take place in the former Dominions and the current Overseas Territories.

I would think (to be corrected on this point) that a British passport holder (citizenship by descent) if they do not renew the passport, then its likely back to the 'foreign passport' as a travel document to enter the UK as a visitor, or if they wish to remain in the UK they would need a residence visa of some sort?

I know lots of Brit born that live outside the UK that never renew their British passports once they become citizens of their new country

Of course, if its possible (question for Britinparis) will the 'UK border folks' accept the holder of an expired British passport entry & to remain in the UK visa free?

I think BritinParis provide the response for the OP in post 4 & 9, but again, IMO some form of status letter would be ideal
An expired British passport is acceptable providing there is no question over the person's identity or nationality. That person is likely to require a valid foreign passport to travel however and they would also need to be from a non-visa national country.

Originally Posted by not2old View Post
unanswered questions from post#18 if someone could please answer for me

Thanks

1.

A. can a Brit born presenting both their expired British passport and with a valid commonwealth passport entering through the passport control, be allowed to, waved through, or given 'indefinite leave to remain' without having their commonwealth passport stamped 'the usual ' 6 mths, must not work, no access to public funds'?

B. can a Brit 'by descent' presenting both their expired British passport and with a valid commonwealth passport entering through the passport control be allowed to, waved through, or given 'indefinite leave to remain' without having their commonwealth passport stamped 'the usual ' 6 mths, must not work, no access to public funds'?
See answer above. They won't be given ILR nor would it need to be specific to Commonwealth passport holders. If the IO is satisfied that they are a British citizen then they will have Right of Abode and be allowed to enter the UK as such.

2. for the British by descent' individual with a VALID CURRENT British passport, can someone suggest if there is way that they can get a 'status letter', a 'certificate' or some other way to say or state that they are British, other than just by having a British passport?

On that, it seems too me discussed in post #4 & #post 9, that anyone considering applying for a first 'British passport' by descent, should prior to doing it, get the NS 'status letter', that way they'd have something other than the passport?

Would appreciate any comments, suggestions, recommendations or ideas on this from anyone in the know or who has gone this route?
As above, a consular birth certificate is available in most countries. For those that are not then a Subject Access Request to HMPO for your nationality details is the cheap and easy alternative. Form NS is not suitable for this purpose.

Last edited by BritInParis; Mar 11th 2015 at 11:38 pm. Reason: Typo
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Old Mar 11th 2015, 11:30 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

post # 20 Thank you

That's sorted it for me
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Old Mar 12th 2015, 12:10 am
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

another question related to 'by descent'

From my understanding, for the 'citizen by descent' who cannot normally pass down citizenship to their child, unless - prior to the birth of the child outside the UK, providing the parent who is a 'citizen by descent' was living in the UK for a continuous period of 3 years, then the child may become a British citizen.

What form of citizenship will that child be entitled to (born outside the UK to a parent who is a 'citizen by descent') & will that child be allowed to pass British citizenship to its future children if they are born outside the UK?
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Old Mar 12th 2015, 12:24 am
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

Originally Posted by not2old View Post
another question related to 'by descent'

From my understanding, for the 'citizen by descent' who cannot normally pass down citizenship to their child, unless - prior to the birth of the child outside the UK, providing the parent who is a 'citizen by descent' was living in the UK for a continuous period of 3 years, then the child may become a British citizen.

What form of citizenship will that child be entitled to (born outside the UK to a parent who is a 'citizen by descent') & will that child be allowed to pass British citizenship to its future children if they are born outside the UK?
There are two options.

If the British by descent parent had lived in the UK for three continuous years before the birth of the child then the child could be registered under Section 3(2) BNA 1981. The application would need to be made before the child's 18th birthday. They would also become a British citizen by descent. If a further generation was born overseas then they would not be able to register as a British citizen under Section 3(2) or Section 3(5) BNA 1981.

If the British by descent parent and the child had lived in the UK together for three continuous years after the birth of the child then the child could be registered under Section 3(5). The application would need to be made before the child's 18th birthday. They would become a British citizen otherwise than by descent. Any of their children born overseas would be automatically a British citizen by descent.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/61/section/3
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Old Mar 12th 2015, 10:47 am
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

post#23 thank you again

Another question, for a situation that can take place today under the current immigration rules.

For the minor aged child born outside the UK to a 'British by descent' parent Mother, both moving to take up residence in the UK - which visa does the child need?
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Old Mar 12th 2015, 6:14 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

Originally Posted by not2old View Post
post#23 thank you again

Another question, for a situation that can take place today under the current immigration rules.

For the minor aged child born outside the UK to a 'British by descent' parent Mother, both moving to take up residence in the UK - which visa does the child need?
Depends on what passport the child holds. If they have an EU/EEA passport then they won't need a visa. Otherwise there are various options depending on the circumstances. For instance the child could be included as a dependent on the non-British parent's spouse visa.
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Old Mar 12th 2015, 6:31 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Depends on what passport the child holds. If they have an EU/EEA passport then they won't need a visa. Otherwise there are various options depending on the circumstances. For instance the child could be included as a dependent on the non-British parent's spouse visa.
missed one point in the above question post #24...

Background:

The child is born in a commonwealth country to the mother (a British passport holder) who is 'British by descent'.

On the basis the Mother who is British by descent, has not previously spent the required period of 3-years in the UK prior to the birth of the child overseas for the child to be eligible for British citizenship

Question:

The child is entering the UK together with the Mother. Which visa is the minor aged child required to have to be allowed unrestricted entry or residency to the UK?
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Old Mar 12th 2015, 6:43 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

Originally Posted by not2old View Post
missed one point in the above question post #24...

Background:

The child is born in a commonwealth country to the mother (a British passport holder) who is 'British by descent'.

On the basis the Mother who is British by descent, has not previously spent the required period of 3-years in the UK prior to the birth of the child overseas for the child to be eligible for British citizenship

Question:

The child is entering the UK together with the Mother. Which visa is the minor aged child required to have to be allowed unrestricted entry or residency to the UK?
As I said, it would depend on the circumstances. Whether the mother is returning alone or with the child's father, what passport/visa the father holds, whether the child is old enough to go to school, etc.. There's no special consideration for children born in Commonwealth countries. "Commonwealth country" covers EU states like Malta and Cyprus as well as a visa national countries like South Africa and Pakistan. Birth in a Commonwealth country wouldn't necessarily confer birthright citizenship.

If the child would otherwise be stateless then they can be registered as a British citizen regardless of how long the British by descent parent has previously resided in the UK.
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Old Mar 12th 2015, 7:04 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
As I said, it would depend on the circumstances. Whether the mother is returning alone or with the child's father, what passport/visa the father holds, whether the child is old enough to go to school, etc.. There's no special consideration for children born in Commonwealth countries. "Commonwealth country" covers EU states like Malta and Cyprus as well as a visa national countries like South Africa and Pakistan. Birth in a Commonwealth country wouldn't necessarily confer birthright citizenship.

If the child would otherwise be stateless then they can be registered as a British citizen regardless of how long the British by descent parent has previously resided in the UK.
thanks for that detail, to continue....

Mother is Canadian born, a single Mother, dual citizen - Canadian & 'British' (by descent) British passport holder. The child was born in Canada, is not stateless, is a minor under 12 years of age, has only a Canadian passport.

Mother cannot pass on British citizenship to the Canadian born child because the Mother had not spent the specified 3-years in the UK prior to the birth of the child in Canada. The Mother was not in crown service, or the armed forces.

Mother & child both live in Canada prior to their intended move to the UK, they both will be entering the UK together with the intention to remain in the UK on a permanent basis.

Which visa (if any) is the the child required to have, need or hold, be issued with to be allowed settlement in the UK?

Last edited by not2old; Mar 12th 2015 at 7:06 pm.
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Old Mar 12th 2015, 8:56 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

for my question in post #28, would the following be the right application form & visa, if not please make a suggestion?

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...r-18-form-setf

for post 28, there is 'no father' of the child that has in anyway shape or form, or with any right, connection, control, or support of the child.

The child is fully dependent on and is supported only by its Mother. The Mother is single, not in a relationship, nor does she have a partner.

Last edited by not2old; Mar 12th 2015 at 9:37 pm.
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Old Mar 14th 2015, 9:17 pm
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Default Re: How to prove British citizenship - passport not allowed

bumping this back up

Anyone that can please provide an answer or suggestion to my question in post 29, added to 28?

thanks
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