Brikiwozzie

Hey everyone

Any help / clarifications / thoughts that anyone could give me would be much appreciated.

Firstly my situation / history:

- I was born in New Zealand in 1980 and I have a New Zealand Passport.
- My Father was born in India in 1949 to British Parents, he also has a New Zealand Passport (I don't know if he was ever a British Citizen - but he did go to school in the UK).
- I applied for and received my British Passport before I turned 18 which is when I moved to the UK.
- As far as I can remember, my passport would have otherwise been a 4 year ancestral visa (but for the fact I applied before I was 18) as I used my grandfather's birth certificate or passport with my application.
- Not sure if relevant info or not - My Father was the 4th generation of men in our family to be born in India to British parents.
- I lived in the UK from 1998 until 2012 before I moved to Australia with my wife (who has Irish and New Zealand Passports).
- We had our first child in July of this year in Australia, but as neither I or his mother are Australian citizens, he is not able to qualify for Australian Citizenship until he is 10 years old.
....And this is where I need help.

I am struggling to work out if I am only a British Citizen by descent and have no chance of passing on any rights, or if I need to register (or are eligible to register) his birth with the British Consulate, or if I can just apply for a British Passport for my son?

We can't currently do any overseas trips at all (as he can't get an Australian Passport) but we would like to take him to the UK for a friend's wedding next year. We haven't ruled out returning to the UK permanently at some point in the future but don't know what our options for him would be in that case either.

Our son does qualify as a New Zealand citizen by descent, but I wasn't sure if getting this first would jeopardise any part of a British claim.

Cheers in Advance

Brikiwozzie

JAJ

First of all - get him his New Zealand passport. I'm not sure if it would affect anything with the U.K., and even if it did, does it matter? He really needs a New Zealand passport otherwise you need to get him an Australian temporary residence visa ...

Secondly - it sounds like he can be registered as an Irish citizen, based on your wife, as long as she was Irish when he was born. There is a Foreign Birth Registration process to apply for. Unless your wife was born in Ireland, or Northern Ireland, in which case he's Irish already.

Regarding British citizenship - it's not clear if there is any claim. Where was your paternal grandfather born, and what were your grandparents doing in India when your father was born? Were they in Crown Service? It's not even clear whether you are a British citizen, based on the facts posted.

Australian citizenship - if either one of you has an Australian permanent resident visa, or if you happened to be in Australia on 26 February 2001 (or spent 1 year in Australia between February 1999-February 2001), your son would be an Australian citizen. If not, what's the plan long term? If you plan to remain in Australia, are you eligible for permanent visas?

Brikiwozzie

Cheers JAJ

NZ Passport - I think we are going to have to get him one of these regardless. The only reason I was hesitant to get it before we go down the British avenue is I know that there are different sets of rules / options that apply (not that I understand these ones either) to people who are regarded as 'Stateless' which our son currently is.

Irish Citizenship - My wife is looking into this as well. Her dad was born in New Zealand and so is Irish by descent and so is my wife - Born in New Zealand thankfully however (if it helps) she did have her Irish passport before our son was born.

British Citizenship - My paternal Grandfather (and also his father and Grandfather) were all born in India, my dad was the fourth generation of males born there. Each of the generations (except my Dad who emigrated to NZ as a teenager) worked for one of the tea companies (unfortunately I don't know which one or if it would have been classed as Crown Service).
To be fair, one would be forgiven for thinking that supplying tea to Great Britain is one of the greatest ways imaginable to serve ones country.
I do have a British Passport which labels me as a British Citizen, however it doesn't distinguish whether I am by descent or otherwise than by descent. I think in the thirteen or so years I have lived in the UK that I paid enough in taxes for an entitlement from the Queen herself.

Australian Citizenship - Because both my wife and I have New Zealand passports we are treated similarly as if we were to have indefinite visas (providing we remain of good character / don't obtain any criminal convictions etc etc). We do get medicare but for instance if we wanted to study, we would pay international fees.
We weren't here for the 99 - 01 rule but I think one of us can apply to become an Australian citizen after we've been here 2 years (and I've been told a significant sum of money for lawyers and the process generally, $10k plus).
Don't know about long term, that is really why we want to have as many options as possible.

JAJ

She must have a Foreign Birth Registration document that would give the date she registered as an Irish citizen. She should normally need this in order to register your son as an Irish citizen. Does she have this document - or is it lost?

Unlikely. Also, one normally needs to have been recruited in the United Kingdom.

I actually think you have to start with your own father's status. It's not even clear if he is a British citizen, simply based on birthplace in India in 1949. This is because neither he nor his own father were born in the United Kingdom & Colonies. Does he have any kind of document showing registration as a Citizen of the United Kingdom & Colonies? If not, does he have any of his old British passports?

You can't apply for Australian citizenship unless you get permanent residence, or unless there's some other Australian tie (like an Australian born or naturalised parent) that you haven't told us about.

It shouldn't cost anything close to $10k to get permanent residence, and normally you don't need a lawyer. A competent migration agent can add some value. The key question is do you meet the requirements for one of the possible visa types.

Permanent residence has a lot of benefits long term, for 99% of NZ citizens planning to remain in Australia (the other 1% being those who benefit from tax concessions on offshore income for temporary residents).

If interested - start researching your visa options at http://www.immi.gov.au
If one of you has a skilled occupation then you would have a good chance, although you might need employer sponsorship.

Brikiwozzie

Her dad thinks he has this (somewhere) and is going to send us a scan when he finds it...... bizarrely this may end up being our easiest option - despite the fact that neither my wife or her dad were born in or have ever lived in Ireland.

Me either. He doesn't remember if he ever had a British passport, his dad passed away while he was a teenager and his mum got dementia and might have destroyed any useful records. The birth certificate or passport of his dad was the only thing we could find after going through his mum's stuff back in 98.
Logic would suggest though that because he was able to hop on a boat from the UK to India and back again at the start and end of school holidays that he obviously had some documentation to say he was allowed into the UK each time.

Unfortunately not, however if we do stay in Oz I think permanent residence route is going to be a necessity one way or another and from what I have just read it looks like its a four year minimum residence here not the two years I had initially thought.

I might be able to call myself one of the occupations on the Skilled Occupations List but I guess that would only be if it still exists at the time I'm elligible to apply.

Appreciate the help.

....It will be weird though if my wife and I go back to the UK to live and our son will either have to be on a visa (if on a NZ passport) or as an Irishman.

scot47

Working on a Tea Plantation would not qualify as "Crown Service".

JAJ

It's possible that your father was registered as a citizen of the U.K. & colonies under section 7 of the British Nationality Act 1948 (registration of children). If done before October 28, 1971, this would mean that he is a British citizen otherwise than by descent.

But he would have to find his registration document.

Out of interest, what documentation did you show to get a British passport in the 1990s?

It's four years for citizenship. Not for permanent residence. They are two different things, although you need permanent residence to become a citizen.


Note that if it turns out that you're a British citizen by descent, then if your son lives in the U.K. for 3 years then he can be registered as a British citizen otherwise than by descent (section 3(5) - British Nationality Act 1981).

BritInParis

If you are a British citizen by descent and you spent three continuous years in the UK at any point prior to the birth of your son then your son should be eligible for S.3(2) registration as a British citizen.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/br...en/bornabroad/

englishguygoinghome

But do note the warnign at the bottom of that page. If your son has Irish citizenship, so free movement thanks to both the EU and the Common Travel Area, and you are planning on going back to the UK I would avoid this registration. If you wait until your sson has been in the UK for 3 years then he is British other than by descent and can pass it on to his kids wherever they are born, if you register under 3(2) then he is British by descent and cannot pass it on to children born outside the UK as you were born abroad.

Brikiwozzie

Awesome

Thank you all very much, JAJ, BIP, EGGH and Scot47 too. I think we will definitely now hold off on the British Registration at this stage as as mentioned, if it means we do end up back in the UK (before he turns 18 obviously) then he could become British otherwise than by descent. That way, if he too was to have a son born in another country, my family could extend it's tradition of British males being born out of the country into it's seventh generation!

Cheers All

Brikiwozzie

JAJ

Except that you've not told us whether you can evidence your own British citizenship. It would be unwise to make such plans if it turns out that your own British passport was issued by mistake ...