jmin

I believe so.

Entry #1 is a British gazette? If so it then it appears to be a RN appointment which would mean he had a RN position for the duration of his time in Aus. The position is "on loan from the Royal Navy (Exchange Officer)" or "Royal Navy (Exchange Officer)".

Is Entry #2 when your grandfather was on secondment to the RAN? Is the gazette entry a RN promotion - which I assume given entry #3? If he was promoted in the RN while in Aus then that is just more proof that he was in crown service throughout his time in Aus.

It is clear that, at the time of your mother's birth, your grandfather was in crown service or secondment so you have a straightforward claim.
The long form one? Original certificate.

RuleBritannia

Sorry, I should have been more clear - the 'Gazette' entries listed above #1-3 are from the Commonwealth of Australia Gazette. However, the promotion referenced in #2 is also noted in the London Gazette Admiralty section, with a date that precisely corresponds to that of the Commonwealth Gazette. I'd overlooked the relevance of this - as you say, more proof (which I will be sure to emphasise!)

Thanks heaps. If I can pay you back by way of sharing historical trivia, my late grandfather was on board one of the RAN ships assigned to Operation Hurricane, otherwise known as the first British nuclear weapon test.

RuleBritannia

Hi,

Just checking in with (hopefully) a final question about supporting documents.

I have easily two dozen pages of supporting documents, for example, service record cards, gazette pages, passenger records, census/Register records. I've gone further than I thought I would need to with these documents as I noticed a minor spelling issue with my grandfather's middle name (think along the lines of Palestine/Palastine) and I've had to cross-reference the identity documents to the military documents, where the discrepancy lies. In contrast to the identity documents, none of the supporting documents are certified - in all cases they are comprehensively cited and where possible, linked to the archival web address.

In terms of providing so much cross-referenced evidence that a minor middle name spelling discrepancy could be overlooked, I'm as comfortable as I think I'm likely to be: all my ages, dates, addresses, occupations and relationships match across the documents. However, I don't have time to request certified copies of these documents from all the different archives before my time runs out for putting in this application.

The document guidance (https://assets.publishing.service.go...uments_V27.pdf) says that:
Can anyone advise on whether I need to provide certified copies of online documents like military service record cards, gazette pages, passenger records, census/Register records, newspaper pages? Or is it acceptable to just print them at the highest possible quality and send them to HMPO with source citation, web address?

pallykin

I will be interested to hear what others say on this..

I sent mine as plain printouts on the theory that these documents are readily available to the Home Office for verification. Also, I would have no idea how to get a certified copy of a page from the London Gazette… or many of the other documents I sent.

jmin

You do not need certified copies of the online documents. There has been at least one case here where the person's claim was based entirely on a London gazette entry. They did not provide a certified copy, and their application was approved. It should be alright if there is a link to the entry on the reputable gazette/library/archives site. Print them and include a link to the source. Gazette entries are often very small font sizes so perhaps include an A4 enlarged version showing just the entry in question along with an A4 of the page the gazette entry is on.

The most important document you have is the certified birth certificate showing that, at the time of your mother's birth, your grandfather was an officer in the Royal Navy. Because you do not have the military records, the birth certificate - which is already certified - is the one document that the rest of the documents support. From the birth certificate, we know that you grandfather was a Royal Navy Officer, his service spanned the time when your mother was born, and because he was an officer, it is assumed he was recruited in the UK. All of the other evidence you have supports what the birth certificate states. Your gazette entries show that he was indeed a Royal Navy Officer, that his service was continual and ended long after your mother was born, that he was in Australia as a Royal Navy Exchange Officer, and so on. You have newspaper articles about your grandparents' marriage which also shows that he was originally recruited in the UK. You have other documents showing he was recruited in the UK plus ship logs showing he went to Australia as a Royal Navy Officer. Also keep in mind that there would have been no reason for your grandfather to put Royal Navy officer on the certificate so many years ago other than that he was, in fact, a Royal Navy Officer.

That said, if one particular entry is what supports your claim it would be best to have it certified if the entry is not available online, as is the case for many colonial gazettes (Yours rests on an already certified document and I believe your gazette entries are available online, though?). If the gazette entry is held at the national archives in Kew, you can have the archives staff verify it (they hold many gazettes, including all of the old ones from the empire). Because they work for the government, their word will be taken. The only experience I have with certifying a gazette entry was during covid when the archives were not offering this service, so I had to use an independent researcher to verify an entry at the archives in Kew. I needed an independent researcher to verify the entry because it supported the rest of the case. If you use an independent researcher, have them write up a brief report (signed) that includes their qualifications, date of visit, copy of the card showing they retrieved the book on the visit, copy of the entry, explain what is in the entry, and so on. Then have them post it to you so you can submit it with your application.

Paid search by archives researcher:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...earch-service/
Independent Researchers:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...t-researchers/

If anyone has a need for this service, ask and I can recommend the person I used last time. He charged very reasonable rates and his report was exactly what I wanted.

RuleBritannia

Hi all,

It's coming up on four weeks since I sent in my paper application from the Post Office. I chose to pay an additional 5 pounds for the secure return delivery of my documents, and they've already arrived back in the mail. Based on what others have posted elsewhere, I wasn't expecting to receive them back until after the application was complete. I've not had any other correspondence from HMPO, by text, email or post. I realise that anxiety about progress and delays with applications is really common, and I do apologise for adding to the long list of posters worrying about their applications. I am aware that HMPO is quoting 10 weeks as the turnaround from "when we receive your old passport, any supporting documents, or confirmation of your identity details if needed". However, as I've made a paper application, the online tracking option isn't available, so the only way for me to get information is to talk to someone in a call handling centre. I didn't even get acknowledgement from HMPO that they'd received a passport application, let alone a foreign passport. As mentioned in my OP, there is a visa expiry date that could very well fall before HMPO make a decision, which I know is irrelevant if I'm a British citizen, but until I have a passport in my hand I am going to struggle with all of the combinations and permutations of what could happen.

Could getting my documents back so quickly have any significance? Is the complete absence of communication from HMPO standard? Is it worth trying to escalate my situation or should I just hold on and pray that I haven't chewed my fingernails off by the time this is all over?! Thanks all!

RuleBritannia

Quick update - received an invitation for an identity interview today. Little bit emosh!

jmin

Congratulations!

RuleBritannia

Thanks so much for your invaluable assistance jmin, and also to everyone else who helped out. Looking forward to providing an update when I have the passport in hand!

RuleBritannia

How do you do, fellow Brits?!?
Just came back to give an update that my application was successful and a brand new British passport arrived in the mail several weeks ago!
I'd also like to say that this website is an absolute gem with some wonderful contributors. The advice I've received here has been life-changing. Saying thanks doesn't seem enough to express my gratitude. Best of British to anyone else going through a similar situation, I hope the advice in this thread is also helpful to others down the line.
Cheers.

pallykin

Congratulations!

It's been awhile since I've been on this forum and read this post, and I realise now that you applied directly for a passport. (My detaiIs are above.) I applied for registration via form UKM - I think the key difference is that I was born before 1 Jan 1983, so the law and the pathway are different.

I submitted my application 23 March 2023 so today marks 5 months with a 6 month standard of service. I was informed in a response to an email enquiry that I sent that as of 27 July 2023, my application was in a queue waiting to be assigned to a caseworker. Fingers crossed that my application will be assessed in the next few week, or that it already is being assessed! The waiting is hard...

RuleBritannia

Thanks pallykin!
Yes I think you're right about the date of 1st Jan 1983 being the difference. I wish you well with the wait, I wasn't aware that the registration pathway was so much longer than the automatic pathway. I actually had no idea how long to expect HMPO would take to process my application. Without being sure of your situation, I suspect the other factor that could have sped things up for me was applying from within the UK. Whatever the case may be, I found the wait after applying far more difficult than I expected. Even though the wait was ultimately surprisingly short, the outcome for me if my application had been unsuccessful would have been very difficult and expensive as my visitor visa was just about to expire when the application was approved, and HMPO are not generous with their communications. It has been a real turn of events from applying for an Ancestry Visa late last year (wtf?!?) to where I am now, greatly assisted by the kindness of complete strangers online. I would never have had the belief to cancel my original Ancestry Visa application and persist with the painstaking process of preparing my citizenship application if not for their generosity - I sincerely hope they are rewarded for their good works!

pallykin

Based on reading the timelines of other people applying via form UKM, the wait is typically 4-6+ months, so I am right in the middle of that range. It occurs to me that having a two step route to citizenship for people born before 1983 to British mothers that is supposed to address past inequities is in itself not quite equitable if the process for people born from 1983 onwards is easier, faster, and cheaper. Perhaps they will eventually address this...? The naturalisation fee is waived for Form UKM, just had to pay the citizenship ceremony fee of £80.

The passport application should take 2-3 weeks and I will only need to send a colour copy of my passport, and my naturalisation certificate, and I will be exempt from being required to attend an interview if I apply within a year of the date of naturalisation. This in contrast to my UKM application which weighed just under a pound and cost $$$ to ship!

I'm looking forward to spending time in the UK and being under any restrictions... You must be very relieved!

jmin

I doubt they will ever address the differences between registration and those who are automatically a citizen by descent. There is a continued tendency to increase the complexity of British Nationality Law with workarounds that few people will ever learn they are eligible for.

As a side note, I have noticed that users with British citizenship by descent claims that rely on the military service of a parent or grandparent tend to be processed much more rapidly than other claims (not the case for designated service claims that do not rely on a connection to the military). This occurs even when the applicant does not have the actual military service record but is relying on some other information.

pallykin

It’s entirely believable that the UK will do nothing to make this easier unless required to do so.

I’m very happy to hear about your observation that a military connection helps. This waiting is very difficult… Lots of time for doubts to creep in… 23 September will mark 6 months from application.

I’ve read a number of your assessments of others situations and everything seems to back up my claim. This has been very encouraging. Thank you.

A couple of friends have asked if they might have a claim to UK citizenship via double descent, and I haven’t been certain.

One is for someone born before 1994 in South Africa to a father born before 1983 in South Africa to a British mother. This has started to seem promising based on another case you advised someone on and which was successful. This friend is considering an ancestry visa. UK citizenship would be so much better!

The second is someone born before 1949 in Uganda. Her father was Ugandan but spent years in the UK but it was after 1949. This one seems a stretch.