moneypenny20

Out of interest how would she have got married without a Birth Certificate?

teza

As I recall, I got married in London in 1998 without a birth certificate

Editha

You don't actually need a birth certificate to get married now, just proof of name, age and nationality. But, I believe you needed less ID in the past; the rules may have been tightened up since the eighties because of fraudulent marriages being used in immigration scams.

Editha

The OP's mother is almost certainly entitled to Polish citizenship by descent. I found the form online and the cost is just 219 zloty, which is about £38. The website migrant info also claims that the procedure just takes a couple of months.

Having got citizenship, the fee for a 5 year passport would be £25, although if she waits until she is over 70 they'll issue a passport for free! The Embassy website doesn't say how long it takes to issue a passport, but they'll issue a temporary passport, for use while waiting for the 5 year one, for £11

So that looks like the cheapest (less than £100) and quickest way to get her a passport. The only snag is that the forms are in Polish, but I'm sure she could easily find someone from one of the Polish charities to help.

teza

As per post #20 by our resident expert, without any documentation it'll be harder than "just to apply" unfortunately. To the OP, I would put my trust in the wealth of information from BritInParis, and like BEVS, I hope there's a resolution in sight.

moneypenny20

Ok, we needed BCs when we got married in 92 as far as I remember. However if you don't have a birth certificate how do you have proof of name and age? I'm just confused how this lady managed to go through work, marriage, bank accounts etc etc with nothing proving who you are How do you get a NI Number? So many questions and sadly no answers. Hope the OP is successful somehow.

teza

Hope they are successfull as well. From my point, I was working as a Finnish nurse, needed only photo ID to get married at Marylebone registry office, work sorted bank accounts and NI (with brief group appearance from us). Again, this was in 96/98 era. But I only carried passport and hospital ID, and mainly hospital ID was enough, and to get that, they never asked for my passport. Bit worrying as an afterthought

Editha

I'm not trying to contradict BiP, and I bow to his expertise on British immigration matters.

However, Poland had a huge number of its population as DPs at the end of WW2. And, given that the OP's grandmother, to end up in a DP camp in Northern Rhodesia, was deported from Poland as slave labour by Stalin, separated from her menfolk when they went off to fight on the eastern front, and then deported from the USSR to Iran, I think it extremely likely that her daughter (or granddaughter) will get a sympathetic reception if she contacts the Polish Embassy.

It is also quite probable that the Polish Embassy has more experience in dealing with the citizenship and passport problems of their DPs and descendants than BiP.

So, I am duly chastened and doff my cap to BiP, but I still think my suggested solution is worth a go.

carolinec

A trip to Canada to meet her great uncle who she has never met and who she didn't know was alive. She has little choice bit to find a way to make that happen. He's 84 so whilst he's very fit and well, time isn't on our side. That flight is one thing but all the fees on top are not possible. My mum would have to save for a flight to Canada, if she had to save the extra money it would cost to apply for citizenship it would take a lot of time. You can't simply assume that because I have 5 sisters that we're all in a position to pay for her application, we aren't, or that because she wants to make a visit to Canada possible that there's a lot of money there. There's not. Unfortunately.

I haven't heard of the SEES or Polish Veterans Association before, I'll certainly look into them and find contact details once the baby is in bed.

I got married 18 months ago with zero ID (which I found surprising!) so I think even now it's not always needed. I honestly don't know how my mum has got this far with no real documentation either. I assume going to school here put her in the system and that's why she got an NI number. They actually put her in the wrong year at school and half way through secondary they moved her back a year when they realised. Apparently my nan got her year of birth wrong on the form. Crazy I know. I assume then if she didn't need a BC for marriage, her MC became a form of ID for her bank account later on.

I've looked into a Polish passport and it does definitely seem an option. Just as you say, everything is in Polish and must be. Completed in Polish which is an issue, as is the lack of documentation. I did email the Polish embassy on this but had no response. Twice. Is it the kind of place where you can just turn up for advice or would you need an appointment? Any ideas?

scot47

Związek Kombatantów RP i Byłych Więźniów Politycznych

carolinec

That's all in Polish and unfortunately on my phone I can't translate. What kind of site is it?

Editha

I'd try phoning the Embassy first, before paying them a visit.

I can't translate that site either. Google translate doesn't seem to work. Unfortunately Polish is one of the few European languages my OH isn't fluent in, but he had a stab at it, and says it is a site for Polish veterans, but in Poland, not the UK, so not useful. But the UK Polish veterans site is here:Kontakt | Fundacja Stowarzyszenia Polskich Kombatantów w Wielkiej Brytanii

The way I see it, just as a child of a British subject born abroad is British and just needs to get their passport, it is clear that your mother is Polish by descent. Proving it, of course is another matter.

But, as far as a British passport is concerned, there is the additional hurdle that she is the child of a Polish citizen and was born in Northern Rhodesia, which means that even if she had a birth certificate, she might still need to apply for British citizenship, with all the costs involved, before she could get a passport.

BiP is not wrong, that a birth certificate matters. The Polish Embassy site states that they'd want your grandmother's certificate and your mothers. But I think you should ask them whether, in the circumstances, other methods of proof would suffice.

For example, your mother's uncle in Canada should be able to provide a lot of information about the family and he could make a sworn statement. So could you and your siblings. And of course you also have the passenger list for the ship they took to the UK.

Good luck.

carolinec

Thank you. I don't even know where to begin with the Polish passport, which is the problem. I think my mum would happily take a Polish passport, any passport would do really! We just don't know how to go about it so I guess first step would be the embassy. Again it's just the issue of no documentation again but those options are good ideas to take to a conversation with the embassy.

carolinec

I remembered I did get a reply from the consulate last year, which is below, but they didn't respond to my further questions. It was a very copy and paste blanket response as you can see and it made us feel that it just wouldn't be possible with no documentation.

Please find enclosed information on the procedure.



CONFIRMATION OF POSSESSION OR LOSS OF POLISH CITIZENSHIP

Persons who do not possess documents which provide evidence of their Polish citizenship, and who would like to clarify whether they still possess Polish citizenship or have lost it, may apply for a confirmation of possession or loss of Polish Citizenship to Wojewoda. Persons residing abroad submit their application through the Consulate of the Republic of Poland. As the Polish citizenship confirmation procedure is carried out by respective authorities in Poland, the Consulate is unable to provide information as to the exact duration of the procedure.

Required documents:

1. Application form filled out in Polish and signed. Application has to include the following:



Applicant’s personal data;
A detailed autobiography in Polish that includes the details of your Polish ancestry. It should also explained when and in which circumstances your ancestors left Poland and if possible on the basis of what kind of documents.
Autobiographies of parents and gradparents.


2. Documents confirming identity and citizenship of applicant;

3. Documents confirming data included in the autobiography:



· Birth certificate:

· Last Polish passport;

· Documents confirming parents’ Polish nationality (Polish passport or ID, Polish Military Service Book, confirmation of the Polish citizenship)

· Military Service documents of the applicant and his parents



4. Last document on which basis the applicant has left Poland;

5. Marriage certificate or document confirming marriage dissolution (i.e. divorce order, spouse’s death certificate);

6. Document confirming the change of name or surname if there is a difference between documents issued by the British authorities and Polish documents.

7. Certified copy of the UK naturalisation certificate with translation into Polish;

8. One passport photo; in colour, standard size 35mmx45mm, taken against a uniform, white background, showing person facing forward and looking straight to the camera with natural face expression, clear and sharp in focus, printed on the high quality photographic paper.

9. Power of attorney for mail delivery in Poland; If the applicant does not appoint a person in Poland for correspondence deliveries, the subsequent decisions in proceeding will be kept in the file and considered delivered without notification.

10. Consular fee; We accept payments made by cash and postal orders made payable to „Consulate General of the Republic of Poland in Manchester”.

Editha

I agree that isn't helpful.

Have you looked at these files in the National Archive?:

Disposal of Polish refugees from Rhodesia and East Africa. Code 55, file 179 | The National Archives

Maintenance of Polish refugees in Northern Rhodesia. Code 48 File 957 | The National Archives