Calico_Cat

Hi All,

Delighted to discover a forum that actually seems useful at last with some voices of knowledge and experience! Quick question if you guys don't mind? I applied to the MOD for my grandfather's service record and was supplied with it, in the form of three A3 photocopied pages, and a covering letter. The photocopies however do not have any kind of stamp or mark indicating that they originated at the MOD. I have everything ready for my application but am really worried that as they are sticklers for originals they will need to see some sort of certification of the record. Mat_Walsh, can you recall what your MOD record looked like? I'm leaning towards applying anyway and dealing with the issue down the line, however if it's likely to be a flat refusal then I'd rather hold on until I've rectified the situation. I did write to the Air Historical Branch to see if they could issue me with a letter containing the exact information I require from the record, but have not heard back from them on email in around two months though my initial email to them was answered within days.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!

Ross McHarg

Hi
I seem to be in the same situation as some of the previous folk in the thread.
My difference is my father was born in Poona,India where his father was a British officer commanding an Indian regiment where by all accounts he was a bit of a war monger having been commissioned at Sandhurst he went to India in the 1930s tof be involved in conflicts.
The only info I can find online states if mother was a British citizen not father.
I was born in Zambia in 1975 where my grandfather moved with his family to take up a foreign office post.
Both my parents hold British passport but my mother was born in South African so she is by descent.
Do I have a claim via my father been born in India through grandfather being employed by the Crown at time of my father's birth and how if possible do I go about it.
Will appreciate all advice I'm given.
Thanks

Calico_Cat

Hi Ross,

I have applied but have not heard back yet, and can't tell you definitively what will work - however it sounds like you would indeed have nationality by descent as your father was born otherwise than by descent during your grandfather's crown service in India.

I would start by collecting as much documentation as you can to prove the two essential elements, which are that your grandfather was recruited in the UK (Sandhurst), and was in service still (in India) when your father was born. That was quite long ago and pre-WW2 service records might be easier to get than WW2, and might be in the public archives at Kew. You can also write to the MOD if they are not, and there are specific forms to apply for the service records which they should keep (which either your grandfather or his next of kin should fill in if he is no longer alive). Each branch has a different form, which is available online.

Once you have that proof, then it's just a straight passport application with the attendant paraphernalia - birth certificates, marriage certificates, parents' old passports, and so on. All the forms are online and guides for the application. I would then do a covering letter to explain how you motivate your claim by descent, and listing the documentation, as there is no section in the form for it.

Some people choose to go the route of first applying to the Home Office for determination of citizenship, but I'm in a hurry and thought I have an equal chance of persuading the passport office and thereby killing two birds with one stone. I also know a few people who have done it that way - straight to the passport office. I think Philip Gamble recommends the determination of citizenship route, but of course that means more money and more time!! People I have met who have done this say it takes around 5 months, and there is an interview.

Anyhow, that is what I have done, and it is by no means guaranteed to work, but if your documentation is sufficient and you can substantiate the claim, you will get there in the end!

Good luck!

angie_329

From what I know about British nationality law (and BIP will no doubt confirm or correct me) and as you outline, you and Ross are both British, as fathers born to a father during crown service recruited in UK. The question is what documentation is necessary - in your case- if not original or stamped will it be accepted? Good Luck and you can always try again if they want more paperwork. Also for those searching ancestry findmypast many be useful.

The determination of citizenship with Gamble may be useful for less clear cut cases than yours, e.g birth in ex colonies, and various permutations of dates. See Zambia/Northern Rhodesia as an example of routes to BC for those not descended from a Crown service grandparent/ parent.

Keep us updated as to what happens!

Calico_Cat

Thanks very much, will do! It is likely to be months down the line.

Regarding the paperwork, I emailed the passport office and they said that if it is the practice of the RAF to issue plain photocopies then they should be able to accept these, but they will only make that determination at the time of assessing the application. Likely an extra delay for them to make their enquiries, and they may end up asking me to do the leg work, but I intend to show them their email response and hope it will mean a delay in one application rather than a whole new one!

Agreed that for applications with any legal or factual complexity it is better to address that outright through the Home Office (via Gamble or on your own). The passport office will mostly deal with facts if I understand it, and not with determining uncertainties. The determination they issue will then be the proof required for the passport.

Will keep the forum posted, pardon the pun!

Ross McHarg

Thanks for the replies I'll see what documents I can get hold of from MOD and then see where I am

angie_329

previously in this thread 'the gazette' ( an official public record) was mentioned as a source of announcements re for example Sandhurst and postings overseas for the military.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

Rickmcd

Hi guys, im in the exact same situation as Ross with my Grandad and my father being born in India(Grandad was a Lieutenant colonel in the
7th Gurhka reg) and in the past thought i had to use a third party to make my application, so havent because of perceived cost. But i see you can do it on your own, so happy to have a crack. For clarity , The advise is I should or could just apply for passport rather than the citizenship route ? I assumed you would not get a passport without being a citizen first ? ...if one managed to get a passport first , does this then mean you become a citzen then ?

Ross, have you applied for either yet and if so what forms , online or otherwise did you use . I cant find any relevant forms on citizenship appkication or passport application that allow me make a start...its just standard stuff not allowing me to apply .

Thanks for any advice .

Rick

BritInParis

You need to be a citizen in order to be eligible for a passport. If it's your legitimate paternal line then you would already be a British citizen - you just need to prove it.

Calico_Cat

Yup, if the nature of your grandfather's crown service is clear and you have sufficient documentation then the passport office should be able to determine that your father was born 'otherwise than by descent', and process your passport on the basis that you are already British by descent, from birth. I would only do the determination of nationality process where the crown service was non-standard or where your evidence is complex. If your grandfather was in the armed forces, that's pretty standard.

You can get all the forms online - https://www.gov.uk/overseas-passports will take you through it. You can download guidance notes to filling out the form from the site, and a list of the required documentation. There is no specific section for crown service, but there is a section (8?) where you can state the basis of your application, and I would include a covering letter too. Then include all the documentation proving your grandfather's crown service in addition to the required standard documentation.

Ross McHarg

Thanks for that. Trying to get all documentation to prove my grandfather was in the Army is a headache in its self. Have received a letter stating that he attended Sandhurst in 1932 but now trying to confirmation of him going to India to join some militia before WW2 started.
If anyone knows how to get discharge papers would be a great help.
Thanks

Calico_Cat

Oh, but it shouldn't be too bad (I hope)! As long as you know his service number, you can just apply directly to the Ministry of Defence for a copy of his service record, which will have all his postings on it. Next of kin can apply (so likely your parent). There are specific forms for each branch of defence forces - try go from https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military...cords/overview, or just google it. You will probably need ID, the form, and death certificate.

If you don't have his service number, you can try and find it. I found my grandfather's service number in the Air 78 record which on the national archives website. So if you can google what the right record name might be, look for it in the archives online, select the right alphabetical section, and scroll...

Rickmcd

Hi guys and thank-you so much for the information.

Can I please get comment to clarify something for me in my little head, so to be clear

Grandfather born UK, father born 1939 in India while Grandfather in Crown Service, and as I was born in 1969 in NZ. My reading of things from a Phillip Gamble video in 2014 relating to the Crown Service angle is that my father needed to be in Crown service at the time of my birth ( because of my year of birth, ie before 1983)... , If I cant get it done by Crown service could I potentially get in on the other setup mentioned being .....Grandfather born UK- father born in former British Territory ( India 1939??) and me NZ 1969.

I'm currently living in the UK on a 5 year unlimited right to remain. ( Ancestory)

many thanks for your time and help with this

Rick

BritInParis

His service would need to be continuous in order to make you eligible, that is he would have needed to have been transferred directly from the British Army to the British Indian Army. Do you know his service number?

BritInParis

If your grandfather was in Crown service at the time of your father's birth and your father was married to your mother at the time of your birth then you ought to be British by descent and thus your ancestry visa is null and void.