British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Hi, I am trying to find out whether I could qualify for British citizenship by double descent. My maternal grandfather was British, and my mother was born and lived in South Africa. I was born in 1978. My mother obtained her British passport a few years after I was born, though she never lived in Britain (she is now deceased as is my grandfather). I understand there has been a recent judgement which may allow me to claim British citizenship, and thus a British passport under the category 'Born before 1983 to a British mother'. I have been advised that I should apply through an immigration law expert but this is very costly. Can anyone advise on whether I would be eligible? And if so should I apply directly myself or via an immigration firm?

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Your mother was born and lived all her life in South Africa. So she was British by descent (i.e not born in UK but of British parent).

Therefore if YOU were also born in South Africa she could not pass on her citizenship to you.

You could probably qualify though for an Ancestry visa to allow you to live in the UK.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Was your maternal grandfather was born in the UK? Was your maternal grandfather was married to your maternal grandmother at the time of your mother's birth? Were your parents were married at the time of your birth? If the answer is yes to all those questions then you can now apply to be registered as a British citizen following a recent Supreme Court decision; The Advocate General for Scotland v Romein.

The OP in this thread has very similar circumstances to yourself (make sure you read the whole thing).

Remember also to apply for and receive permission from the Department of Home Affairs to retain your South African citizenship before making your application. Failure to do so before you become a British citizen will result in the loss of your South African citizenship.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Yes, yes and yes to all questions. Thank you! Just to clarify, my grandfather was born in the UK in 1904. My mother was born in Cape Town, South Africa in 1951. I was born in Cape Town in 1978.
I was concerned that as my mother did not have her passport at the time of my birth (she received one later) that may be a problem? She obtained her British passport in the 80's I think.

Do you recommend just applying myself, or is there any value in using an immigration lawyer? The ones I have spoken to say it's a complex area, and a new untested area of law, and they need to 'argue my case' which is why, I guess, they charge so much!

Thanks for the heads up about the SA citizenship, I will follow up on that.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

That's not a problem. A passport requires you to be a citizen, a passport does not make you a citizen.

It's no longer untested; Ms Romein's lawyers have argued the case for you. The application itself is free (a £80 citizenship ceremony fee will be charged if your application is successful) so I would be cautious about paying £000s to a solicitor to complete a fairly simple application for you.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Thanks for all this new info...... quite a decision, for lots of people.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Potentially many tens of thousands. I'd be very interested to hear back from a poster about their experience if they are successful in making an application.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Thanks for the help. I intend to apply and will hopefully report back with positive results!

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

A most interesting case BIP. Here are some links to the Judgement for those who want to read further.. There are a couple of explanatory notices on legal sites- Doyle Clayton explains that birth of applicant must be between 1949 and !981. Interesting, as I know someone born in 1947 in SA to SA born mother who was refused BC after the 2003 :legislation, as not born in a Protectorate /British Territory. There was no reference to non registration in the refusal though 1922 (b) (v) allows for this (at the time for those born of BC father. The applicant's Grandfather recruited in UK for the Boer warr , though that fact not of use in that time. Grandmother also UK born. The judges seem to be saying that their ruling now will not give rise to discrimination between those born before 1949 and those after?

Any comments on this BIP? Could there be further test cases on this point of pre 1949 births I wonder.

The Advocate General for Scotland v Romein (Scotland) (Rev 1) [2018] UKSC 6 (8 February 2018)

The Advocate General for Scotland v Romein [2018] UKSC 6 | Axiom Advocates

https://www.doyleclayton.co.uk/resou...h-citizenship/

Quote: 'This decision means that a person born outside the UK between 1949 and 1983 to a British mother can now apply for registration as a British citizen, regardless of whether their birth was registered at a British Consulate. A far wider group of people are therefore likely to be eligible to apply for British citizenship by ‘double descent’- the passing of British citizenship from a second generation to a third generation'

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Hi All.
I have a Home Office fees page (dated 6th April 2018) which states that the fee for registration is 1206 Pounds plus 80 Pounds
for the ceremony. Does this fee only come into effect if ones application is accepted?

Thanks in advance

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

I suspect you're looking at the wrong type of registration. You want UKM.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Thank you for the UKM info.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

The applications can go in the same envelope - make sure it’s clear however that there are two separate applications.

There’s no such thing as ‘by law’ - S.5 BNA 1948 is by descent. Where and when was she born?

There’s no certificate number to provide if she was British by descent at birth.

No need to provide a legal argument. Your husband and his brother may wish to write a brief covering note explaining that they understand that they qualify for registration following the Romein case but no more than that.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Then she’ll be by descent. Come back if you have any further questions.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

The two categories under current British nationality Law are "by descent" and "other than by descent" Other inventions like "by double descent" or "by law" are just that - fictions, inventions with no legal basis.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

I have made a successful application this year via the Romein decision. My mom was born in SA in 1952, to British parents. I was born in SA in 1982.
I applied via a well known intermediary, which was rather expensive and on reflection I don't think it was necessary. The application was straightforward, and I see it is covered in the new UKM guide which you can download from the govt site. There is an application fee which you pay when you make the application £80 iirc.

At the insistence of the intermediary I only sent certified copies of the documents (they said they have had many instances of the Home Office returning docs via ordinary post, which of course in SA means you will never see them again). From the letter I got back from the Home Office it seems the only docs they wanted and used were my current SA passport ID page, my unabridged birth certificate (not the vault copy) my mom's unabridged (also didn't use her vault copy) and my grandads birth and marriage certificates. Also (oddly) my marriage certificate (I don't see how this was relevant, but it was included in the docs section).

I don't know if they included a covering letter or not, but there was nothing like that attached to the email that I got from the home office (although copies of my other docs were).

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

I don't know whether they can submit in one envelope, but I do know that I submitted certified copies (certified here in SA), and they accepted that. If you do send originals make sure you have made arrangements for them to courier them back to you as otherwise they will send it via regular mail and we all know how chancy that is.

In terms of how your mom acquired citizenship, I see on my form it says "s5 CUKC" although I'm sure you could also write that she got her citizenship by ordinary operation of law as she was born to a married British father if you prefer. In the section for how my grandfather and grandmother acquired their citizenship it says "CUKC 12(1)". They were both born in the UK to British families.

Hope this helps clarify for you. If you have further questions I'd be happy to try answer based on my experience. If you need help getting docs out of Home Affairs in SA DM me, we have a great expediting company that we used after waiting a year for my birth certificate!

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Hi RosalindJane

Interested to find out if you've been sucessfull with your direct application. I'm in nearly the exact same situation so would hope the direct route is possible.

thanks
C

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

RosalindJane hasn't been on the forum for over 6 months, so is unlikely to see your question. I'd suggest you start a new thread so that those with experience are more likely to see it.

HTH and welcome to BE.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Hi SapphiraeLupa,
I was wondering where you got your documents certified (assuming you did it in RSA)? I am very hesitant to send my original passport and documentation.
Thanks for posting the minimum required documents- that will save me some time!

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

I just went to my local SAPS station and got them certified by the desk sergeant.
You do the biometrics here, at the same places where you do them for UK visas. There was some kind of issue with the booking system, so eventually I just went there without an appointment and they did it for me.

Don't forget to inform home affairs before you do your citizenship ceremony, otherwise you will lose your SA citizenship when you gain British, which can be fixed if you still live in SA, but it's a pain.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Hi - to apply for a passport, does one need to do the UKM first?

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

That would depend on your circumstances - maybe best to start your own thread on the subject.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Hi BIP - I thought I'd continue this thread as it all seems relevant to this discussion. My mother has a BP (by decent - her father was born in the UK and she was born in South Africa). Considering the Romein case, I meet all of the criteria for a BP passport, however, I am not sure if I need to do the UKM first - is this a requirement to apply for a BP?

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

If you’re not a British citizen already but you meet the Romein criteria (born outside the UK to a British by descent mother before 1983) then you’ll first need to register as a British citizen using Form UKM before you can apply for a British passport. Bear in mind that it’s very important you first apply to retain your South African citizenship before starting the process otherwise you will lose it on becoming a British citizen.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Thanks BIP - I will keep this thread updated with progress :-)

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Hey, as BIP says you need to do the UKM first.

People in SA seem to often conflate UK citizenship and UK passports, they are actually two different things. You must have citizenship before you are eligible to apply for a passport (and you can be a citizen without having a passport).
So, you need to get registered as a citizen first, you must apply for retention of RSA citizenship at Home Affairs but you only need to do that before you do the actual citizenship ceremony, you can start the UK application process in the meantime. My application took about 4 months to get processed, and then a further 3 month wait for the citizenship ceremony, so it's not a speedy thing. You can only apply for a passport after you have had your citizenship ceremony.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Thanks for the info. I have paid for my passport application already. so I will probably have to forfeit that fee as the UKM will not be done in time (90 days...). On the upside, I have all the required documentation in hand :-)

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Awesome, thanks for the feedback. Been waiting for my unabridged birth cert to arrive from home affairs- over 6 months wait already! I assume the request to home affairs to hold dual citizenship is just a form that you fill in? Will sort that out when my birth cert eventually arrives.

Re: British Passport - Do I qualify?
 

Sirs,
I'm having a little problem, I'm in the process of applying for a uk passport, the passport office said my dad was born in canada but I know he was born British in Newfoundland in 1938 when it was a U.K. colony, when it joined confederation they are saying he may have lost his citizenship however canada was not full independant till 1983 repatriation of the Canadian constitution, did Newfoundlanders lose their British subject status?.

thank you

Re: British Passport - Do I qualify?
 

Any entitlement to a British (CUKC) passport would’ve ceased after 1948 unless he had a connection to the UK. Was his father born in the UK?

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

BritInParis

Hi BritInParis i was wondering if you could help me out with my situation considering British Citizenship.

Backstory: I was born in the United Kingdom on the 18th January 1999 to a a Canadian Mother who came here when she was 9. and an Irish father who was born in Dublin but moved to the UK when he was 1 years old. My mother can claim British Citizenship by descent using the UKM forms, but i have applied for a passport in the past and was told that i am NOT a British Citizen. My Father was classed as 'settled' when i was born which means i would of been a British Citizen at birth but i asked the Home Office this and they said it can't be passed through a father? like uh what? My mother did live here when i was born as she had 'right of abode' on her passport, but she has lost the passport and has no proof. I am told that i am not a British Citizen and this is quite upsetting as i have lived here for the past 20 years and have no clue how to become a British Citizen or what route to take, Am i already one as my father was settled under the Common Travel Area agreement?

I look forward to your reply :)

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

Were your parents not married? I presume your maternal grandmother (your mother’s mother) was born in the UK? Have you held any kind of passport until now?

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

No my parents were not married at, they split when i was 4. And yes my grandmother was born in the UK and had my mother in Vancouver, Canada and i am currently in the process of applying for my irish passport by descent from my father.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

When you applied for your British passport in the past did you supply your mother’s and grandmother’s birth certificates?

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

No my mother did not supply my grandmothers birth certificate, am i eligible for double descent?

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

You were born in the UK so you’re either British by birth or not at all. If you reapply with your birth certificate as well as your mother’s and your grandmother’s birth certificates then your application should be successful.

Re: British citizenship by double descent - Do I qualify?
 

But how does that work? they said that one of my parents must of been 'settled' when i was born, but my parent (mother) is a citizen by descent but she has not done the citizenship ceremony yet, so its all confusing. and how come i should include my grandmothers birth certificate? will that make me a British citizen if i was born in the UK and my grandmother was too?