British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Old Oct 31st 2022, 5:16 pm
  #46  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Glassybell
I just wonder if anyone thinks this difference in wording in the new law is significant. Section 4L(2) does not include the "would have been able to become" portion, which in a case like mine that depends on the registration aspect in my first year, seems to apply. So the law looks like it excludes people like me. But maybe this is just sloppy writing and not meaningful? Sections:

“Under section 4L of the British Nationality Act 1981, a person may be registered as a British citizen if:
  • in the Secretary of State’s opinion, they would have been, or would have been able to become, a British citizen but for at least one of:
    • historical legislative unfairness…


Section 4L(2) states that “historical legislative unfairness” includes, but is not limited to, where the person would have become, or not ceased to be, a British subject, citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or British citizen, if an Act of Parliament, or subordinate legislation, had:
  • treated men and women equally…”
No, it does not exclude you.

The Borders and Nationality Act of 2022 removed the one-year registration requirement in BNA 1981 in Section 4C(3D) (and hence from BNA1948 5(1)(b)).

4L(2) has to be read with 4L(1). Historical legislative unfairness includes circumstances where P "would have been able to become" a British Citizen. 4L(2) "includes" circumstances, but does not limit historical legislative unfairness to "would have become, or would not have ceased to be" since 4L(2) is subordinate to 4L(1).
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Old Nov 1st 2022, 8:29 pm
  #47  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Hello, I have a follow-up question to my earlier one. I'm not sure how to answer a question on the ARD form.

My claim is through my maternal grandmother and if there hadn't been gender discrimination my mother would have been a citizen by descent and could have registered my foreign birth in 1976 to allow me to be a citizen by descent. I would assume I should answer Yes to the question below, but since 4C3d says to ignore that need to register, I'm just not sure. It's the difference between no fee and a rather large one (plus an accurate application). Thoughts?


"1.4 Would you have been able to become a British citizen through registration or naturalisation, but for historical legislative unfairness, an act or omission by a public body or because you have exceptional circumstances, that prevented you becoming a British citizen?

No, I would have had an automatic claim to British Citizenship
Yes, I would have been able to register or naturalise

If you have ticked ‘Yes’ to 1.4, you will need to pay a fee to register - see fees for citizenship applications..."

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Old Nov 1st 2022, 11:27 pm
  #48  
 
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Glassybell
Hello, I have a follow-up question to my earlier one. I'm not sure how to answer a question on the ARD form.

My claim is through my maternal grandmother and if there hadn't been gender discrimination my mother would have been a citizen by descent and could have registered my foreign birth in 1976 to allow me to be a citizen by descent. I would assume I should answer Yes to the question below, but since 4C3d says to ignore that need to register, I'm just not sure. It's the difference between no fee and a rather large one (plus an accurate application). Thoughts?


"1.4 Would you have been able to become a British citizen through registration or naturalisation, but for historical legislative unfairness, an act or omission by a public body or because you have exceptional circumstances, that prevented you becoming a British citizen?

No, I would have had an automatic claim to British Citizenship
Yes, I would have been able to register or naturalise

If you have ticked ‘Yes’ to 1.4, you will need to pay a fee to register - see fees for citizenship applications..."
Registration as a British citizen is not the same as consular birth registration. In your circumstances the answer should be ‘No’ to that question.
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Old Nov 1st 2022, 11:31 pm
  #49  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by BritInParis
Registration as a British citizen is not the same as consular birth registration. In your circumstances the answer should be ‘No’ to that question.
Really?? ​​​​​​​That is amazing news - it is so much more affordable with a NO answer!

I didn't know the two registrations were different. Would you mind explaining the difference or pointing me to something that would so I can learn about it?

Thank you!

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Old Nov 2nd 2022, 2:20 pm
  #50  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Glassybell
Hello, I have a follow-up question to my earlier one. I'm not sure how to answer a question on the ARD form.

My claim is through my maternal grandmother and if there hadn't been gender discrimination my mother would have been a citizen by descent and could have registered my foreign birth in 1976 to allow me to be a citizen by descent. I would assume I should answer Yes to the question below, but since 4C3d says to ignore that need to register, I'm just not sure. It's the difference between no fee and a rather large one (plus an accurate application). Thoughts?


"1.4 Would you have been able to become a British citizen through registration or naturalisation, but for historical legislative unfairness, an act or omission by a public body or because you have exceptional circumstances, that prevented you becoming a British citizen?

No, I would have had an automatic claim to British Citizenship
Yes, I would have been able to register or naturalise

If you have ticked ‘Yes’ to 1.4, you will need to pay a fee to register - see fees for citizenship applications..."
Even if it wasn't an automatic claim (but look at what britinparis said), the ceremony fee would only be £80.

Last edited by jmin; Nov 2nd 2022 at 2:22 pm. Reason: change
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Old Nov 4th 2022, 7:36 am
  #51  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Thank you all! I've done a lot of reading the past couple days and I now understand why my claim is automatic. I really appreciate your help.

I'm wondering if someone could glance at the claim I've written up for my case. I modeled it on what has been posted here for other people but tailored it to my case. I just want to make sure it's sound. I have a longer narrative version too that I will print and attach to my application, but I want to use this shorter one for the handwritten section in 1.5. Thanks in advance!

Claim: If not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination my mother could have registered me at birth as a British citizen by descent under Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 British Nationality Act (consular birth registration). I am therefore now eligible to register as a British citizen due to the recent changes in to BNA 1981, specifically Section 4L and Section 4C(3D), as well as Section 4C (1), (2), (3), (3A), and (4) of the BNA 1981.

1. I was born in 1976 in a foreign country (USA).

2. I was born during the period of consular birth registrations for foreign births (Section 5(1)(b) of the BNA 1948).

3. My maternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom in the meaning used in the BNA 1981 (birth within the United Kingdom and Islands – specifically England).

4. My mother, born in a foreign country (USA) in 1955, could have been a British citizen by descent if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination. Specifically, if not for gender discrimination she could have been a British citizen by descent because her mother (my maternal grandmother) was a British citizen born in England in 1923 (Section 5(1) of the BNA 1948).

5. If not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 Act), my mother could have registered my birth with the UK consulate making me a British citizen by descent when I was born in 1976; Section 4C(3D) of the BNA 1981 specifies that the requirement of consular birth registration in Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 Act “is to be ignored.

6. I would have had the right of abode under the test set out in section 4C(4) of the BNA 1981 because:
  • my maternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom (England) (Immigration Act of 1971 section 2(1)(b)(ii))
  • if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5(1) of the 1948 Act), my mother could have been a CUKC by descent through her mother and would have been a CUKC by descent at my birth in 1976 (Immigration Act of 1971 section 2(1)(b)).
  • if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 Act), my mother could have registered by birth with the UK consulate making me a CUKC by descent when I was born in 1976; Section 4C(3D) of the BNA 1981 specifies that the requirement of consular birth registration in Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 Act “is to be ignored.”
  • if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 Act), I would have been a CUKC by descent in 1976, born to a CUKC by descent (mother), who was born to a CUKC (maternal grandmother) and I would have had right of abode immediately before 1st January 1983.
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Old Nov 23rd 2022, 7:31 pm
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Good Evening British Expats

I hope you are keeping well. I was assisted in 2015 with a British Citizenship by Double Decent and i successfully applied and obtained my British Passport. Thank you for all the help with that. BritinParis in particular was very knowledgeable and really helped a great deal.

Since then, I have gotten married and have a wonderful wife and 2 x Beautiful Girls (3 Years and 6 Months).

My Wife and I were looking to visit her sister the other day however the Visa Fees are through the roof and very expensive for South Africans and i came across the British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982).

On my wife's side the British roots go back a bit too far so i was wondering if i could apply in any way for my children based on the above, but it is all really confusing and a long shot i think?

I will give you a quick overview.

- Grandfather Born in the UK 1912
- Grandfather enlisted in the RAF in UxBridge.
- Grandfather sent to South Africa and met my grandmother (She was born in Cape Town, her mother and father born in the UK), they were married.
- My Mom was born in 1945.
- Grandfather left the RAF in 1946.
- I was born in South Africa in 1984

- I obtained my British Passport through Double Decent, Crown Service (Grandfather), Mother Borm whilst he was serving his Crown Service in South Africa.


I see from the legislation the following applies.

- Applicant born in a qualifying country
- Applicant born between 1 January 1983 and 31 December 1987
- Applicant's grandparent born in the UK

Do my children qualify to apply and i am guessing we need to send a motivational letter stating why my mother was unable to register us or something along those lines?

Regards
Mat_Walsh
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Old Nov 23rd 2022, 10:25 pm
  #53  
 
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Mat_Walsh
Good Evening British Expats

I hope you are keeping well. I was assisted in 2015 with a British Citizenship by Double Decent and i successfully applied and obtained my British Passport. Thank you for all the help with that. BritinParis in particular was very knowledgeable and really helped a great deal.

Since then, I have gotten married and have a wonderful wife and 2 x Beautiful Girls (3 Years and 6 Months).

My Wife and I were looking to visit her sister the other day however the Visa Fees are through the roof and very expensive for South Africans and i came across the British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982).

On my wife's side the British roots go back a bit too far so i was wondering if i could apply in any way for my children based on the above, but it is all really confusing and a long shot i think?

I will give you a quick overview.

- Grandfather Born in the UK 1912
- Grandfather enlisted in the RAF in UxBridge.
- Grandfather sent to South Africa and met my grandmother (She was born in Cape Town, her mother and father born in the UK), they were married.
- My Mom was born in 1945.
- Grandfather left the RAF in 1946.
- I was born in South Africa in 1984

- I obtained my British Passport through Double Decent, Crown Service (Grandfather), Mother Borm whilst he was serving his Crown Service in South Africa.


I see from the legislation the following applies.

- Applicant born in a qualifying country
- Applicant born between 1 January 1983 and 31 December 1987
- Applicant's grandparent born in the UK

Do my children qualify to apply and i am guessing we need to send a motivational letter stating why my mother was unable to register us or something along those lines?

Regards
Mat_Walsh
Did you live in the UK at any time before your children were born?
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Old Nov 24th 2022, 4:17 am
  #54  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by BritInParis
Did you live in the UK at any time before your children were born?
Hi BritInParis

No i have not lived in the UK.

Regards
Matthew Walsh
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Old Nov 25th 2022, 1:11 pm
  #55  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Mat_Walsh
Good Evening British Expats
I will give you a quick overview.

- Grandfather Born in the UK 1912
- Grandfather enlisted in the RAF in UxBridge.
- Grandfather sent to South Africa and met my grandmother (She was born in Cape Town, her mother and father born in the UK), they were married.
- My Mom was born in 1945.
- Grandfather left the RAF in 1946.
- I was born in South Africa in 1984

- I obtained my British Passport through Double Decent, Crown Service (Grandfather), Mother Borm whilst he was serving his Crown Service in South Africa.


I see from the legislation the following applies.

- Applicant born in a qualifying country
- Applicant born between 1 January 1983 and 31 December 1987
- Applicant's grandparent born in the UK

Do my children qualify to apply and i am guessing we need to send a motivational letter stating why my mother was unable to register us or something along those lines?

Regards
Mat_Walsh
Since you did not live in the UK and you are a citizen by descent based on your grandfather's crown service, not registration under the new act, there does not appear to be a claim. One option would be to move to the UK and later register them as citizens if they are still minors.

It appears that Sable is now marketing a 'solution' for minors born after 31 December 1987 whose British parent was registered under discretion under the new legislation (Nationality and Borders Act 2022). This is most likely a test case and the issue here is that, at least according to how they present it, you are already a citizen by descent and cannot apply for registration for yourself under the act. Although I suppose it's possible for the minor applicant to argue the case without addressing whether you are, in fact, already a British citizen (if not for gender discrimination, my father could have become a British citizen through his mother).
It requires the following:
  • Parent became a citizen by registration under the Nationality and Borders Act 2022
  • Child under 18
  • Child's parent born in a qualifying country (which would include South Africa)
  • Child's parent born between 1 January 1949 and 31 December 1987; AND
  • Child's parent had a grandparent born in the UK
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Old Nov 25th 2022, 7:41 pm
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by jmin
Since you did not live in the UK and you are a citizen by descent based on your grandfather's crown service, not registration under the new act, there does not appear to be a claim. One option would be to move to the UK and later register them as citizens if they are still minors.

It appears that Sable is now marketing a 'solution' for minors born after 31 December 1987 whose British parent was registered under discretion under the new legislation (Nationality and Borders Act 2022). This is most likely a test case and the issue here is that, at least according to how they present it, you are already a citizen by descent and cannot apply for registration for yourself under the act. Although I suppose it's possible for the minor applicant to argue the case without addressing whether you are, in fact, already a British citizen (if not for gender discrimination, my father could have become a British citizen through his mother).
It requires the following:
  • Parent became a citizen by registration under the Nationality and Borders Act 2022
  • Child under 18
  • Child's parent born in a qualifying country (which would include South Africa)
  • Child's parent born between 1 January 1949 and 31 December 1987; AND
  • Child's parent had a grandparent born in the UK
Hi JMIN

I guess this is the question I was also trying to work out.
If I had known the legislation was going to change, i would not have applied for my British Passport. I would have rather waited and applied under discretion under the new law and then would that have allowed my children to apply?

Regards
Matthew Walsh
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Old Nov 25th 2022, 9:15 pm
  #57  
 
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Mat_Walsh
Hi JMIN

I guess this is the question I was also trying to work out.
If I had known the legislation was going to change, i would not have applied for my British Passport. I would have rather waited and applied under discretion under the new law and then would that have allowed my children to apply?

Regards
Matthew Walsh
You were a British citizen automatically as a result of your grandfather’s Crown service, not via registration, so the test case jmin mentioned wouldn’t apply in your circumstances.
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Old Nov 26th 2022, 8:10 am
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by BritInParis
You were a British citizen automatically as a result of your grandfather’s Crown service, not via registration, so the test case jmin mentioned wouldn’t apply in your circumstances.
Hi BritInParis

Ok so that then means that my Children dont have a case to apply, unless we move to the UK?

The legislation that has changed above does not apply to them at all?

Regards
Matthew Walsh
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Old Nov 26th 2022, 11:20 am
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Mat_Walsh
Hi BritInParis

Ok so that then means that my Children dont have a case to apply, unless we move to the UK?

The legislation that has changed above does not apply to them at all?

Regards
Matthew Walsh
That’s correct. The recent legislation is designed to correct historic gender discrimination in the law which doesn’t factor into your case. As you haven’t lived in the UK prior to their birth then your children do not currently have a claim to British citizenship. If your family was to move to the UK then your children could apply for registration as British citizens after three years.
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Old Nov 28th 2022, 10:29 am
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by BritInParis
That’s correct. The recent legislation is designed to correct historic gender discrimination in the law which doesn’t factor into your case. As you haven’t lived in the UK prior to their birth then your children do not currently have a claim to British citizenship. If your family was to move to the UK then your children could apply for registration as British citizens after three years.
Hi BritinParis

Who does the new law apply to?

Sorry just trying to get my head around it.

Regards
Matthew Walsh
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