British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Old Sep 14th 2023, 1:38 am
  #166  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by thepollyannasociety
Thank you Glassybell! I was assuming (which maybe I shouldn't) that the fact that she lost her citizenship and wouldn't have if she had been male, was part of the gender discrimination aspect. Yikes! Maybe I'm not allowed to apply. I appreciate your help.
Don't take my word for it - just wanted to let you know so you can ask others more knowledgeable if it will matter.
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Old Sep 15th 2023, 6:18 pm
  #167  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Hi again Glassybell, I had a couple of questions for you after reading some old posts. I know that you mentioned my g-grandmother losing her citizenship upon marriage, and I thought I remembered a post where your grandma married an American. Was their marriage post-1948? Since your application was accepted, I would be very curious for my own application. The other question was about your saying that you thought I should only have to pay the ceremony fee. I assumed that my right would be through registration, rather than automatic. Would you mind helping me understand that? Congratulations on your citizenship! You have to feel amazing.
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Old Sep 15th 2023, 6:35 pm
  #168  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by thepollyannasociety
Hi again Glassybell, I had a couple of questions for you after reading some old posts. I know that you mentioned my g-grandmother losing her citizenship upon marriage, and I thought I remembered a post where your grandma married an American. Was their marriage post-1948? Since your application was accepted, I would be very curious for my own application. The other question was about your saying that you thought I should only have to pay the ceremony fee. I assumed that my right would be through registration, rather than automatic. Would you mind helping me understand that? Congratulations on your citizenship! You have to feel amazing.
Hi. My grandmother's marriage was in 1945, but at that point the US did not grant US citizenship automatically to foreign spouses, and because she never naturalized in the US, my grandmother was a British citizen until her death and was in the US as a permanent resident that whole time. I was able to demonstrate that with her green card and her USCIS A-file also shows that she was a UK citizen up through at least 1974. But for you - I do think you need to ask someone more knowledgeable than me about whether it matters that your g-grandmother most likely became a US citizen in 1917 upon marriage. I do not know if the UK will care about that - they may have still considered her a UK citizen unless she renounced, but I really do not know at all. Truly, don't be discouraged because of anything I say - I'm just telling you potential roadblocks so you can anticipate them and find out if they matter, and then if they don't, you will be able to tell the Home Office in your application that they don't matter. Maybe make a separate post in this forum to ask that question about your g-grandmother's marriage in 1917 and her citizenship, and the rest of your case.

I also had thought I didn't have an automatic claim but this forum set me straight on that. The key was that had my mom been able to do a consulate birth registration for me, it was not the same as "Registering" for citizenship - it was just letting the consulate know I exist, so the claim was automatic. I did find some fee schedules and definitions on a UK government website that backed that up too, but can't for the life of me remember where or find them now. If you do have a similar claim as I did, then I would assume you just would pay the ceremony fee, but if your case is more complicated and relies on different legislation, then I don't know.

Here is a helpful guide about the citizenship laws over time: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...on-nationality. It's not really in-depth on everything, but it does tell you relevant legislation that you can then look up online - the UK has it all posted.
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Old Sep 15th 2023, 7:04 pm
  #169  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Glassybell, thank you so much! That is so much helpful information. I definitely know now that I need more research and help before I send my form in. I want it to succeed. Thank you again!
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Old Sep 15th 2023, 9:35 pm
  #170  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by thepollyannasociety
Glassybell, thank you so much! That is so much helpful information. I definitely know now that I need more research and help before I send my form in. I want it to succeed. Thank you again!
Here is a relevant law: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...ntents/enacted. In Part III, 10(2), it says: "(2)Where a woman has (whether before or after the commencement of this Act) married an alien, and was at the time of her marriage a British subject, she shall not, by reason only of her marriage, be deemed to have ceased to be a British subject unless, by reason of her marriage, she acquired the nationality of her husband." But, it doesn't have the same stipulation for husbands that marry foreign women, so I wonder if you could argue this right here was gender discrimination. Oh, and you do want to confirm your g-grandmother became a US citizen. She should have, but who knows. You could request her file - the National Archives might have it since it's so old. I dealt with A-files, not sure if that's what your g-grandmother would have or not but here's a guide to get you started https://www.archives.gov/files/dc-me...lien-files.pdf.

Also, of the same law, Part I, 1(1)(a)(i) says that "
Any person born out of His Majesty's dominions whose father was, at the time of that person's birth, a British subject, and who fulfils any of the following conditions, that is to say, if either—(i)his father was born within His Majesty's allegiance." You could theoretically argue if your g-grandmother hadn't lost citizenship upon marrying an alien, and if this section hadn't discriminated by only allowing fathers to pass on subjecthood, then your grandmother would have been a citizen.

If all the above is right and the HO buys it, you'd have to then check if grandmother would have "lost" her theoretical UK citizenship when she also married her American husband and argue why it was discriminatory. Then you're up to the 1948 BNA Section 5: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...tion/5/enacted for your mom's birth and yours.

The 1981 BNA section 4C has a stipulation about right of abode though that I think you would run into and it might cause a problem: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...tion/2/enacted. I'm not sure how to deal with that.

Again, I'm just reading legislation and theorizing - I do not really know what I'm talking about and my experience is my only frame of reference and I'm only pointing out places in the laws that might be relevant to you. Good luck!

Last edited by Glassybell; Sep 15th 2023 at 9:37 pm.
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Old Sep 15th 2023, 10:31 pm
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Glassybell, you are so good at this! Okay, as far as the loss of citizenship by my gg - in my packet, I have laid out a very similar argument to what you describe, mentioning the sexism in the laws that meant that if my gg's brother had been in the same exact situation, his wife (and children) would be British (which, did actually happen and he had to naturalize). I wrote a side by side comparison, mentioning any life or citizenship law event year by year, with one side for a man, the other for a woman and what happened to the person, with each relevant section of the law (of the time) tied to the event. (I hope that makes sense). So, on to the Right of Abode, I *thought* what the 1971 law laid out was a right to CUKCs, whose grandfather (or nearer) had the right. (But maybe I was misinterpreting that.) If that was that case, my grandmother should have had the right (under non-sexist legislation), as she was considered a natural-born British subject by the 1914 law in place at the time of her birth 1921 (if the law had been equal). Am I reading all of that wishfully, instead of logically?
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Old Sep 15th 2023, 11:10 pm
  #172  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by thepollyannasociety
Glassybell, you are so good at this! Okay, as far as the loss of citizenship by my gg - in my packet, I have laid out a very similar argument to what you describe, mentioning the sexism in the laws that meant that if my gg's brother had been in the same exact situation, his wife (and children) would be British (which, did actually happen and he had to naturalize). I wrote a side by side comparison, mentioning any life or citizenship law event year by year, with one side for a man, the other for a woman and what happened to the person, with each relevant section of the law (of the time) tied to the event. (I hope that makes sense). So, on to the Right of Abode, I *thought* what the 1971 law laid out was a right to CUKCs, whose grandfather (or nearer) had the right. (But maybe I was misinterpreting that.) If that was that case, my grandmother should have had the right (under non-sexist legislation), as she was considered a natural-born British subject by the 1914 law in place at the time of her birth 1921 (if the law had been equal). Am I reading all of that wishfully, instead of logically?
I am not sure. My impression has been that the grandparent had to be born (or adopted/naturalized) in the UK or islands, but again, I only read about right of abode as far as it pertained to me so I don't know. Here is a guide about it: https://assets.publishing.service.go...t_of_abode.pdf.

This implies that is the case: "Now this is where the paternal grandmother's birth [which was in the UK] becomes quite important. Because it is a UK grandparent who can give the Right of Abode to those who are Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies, as our gentleman was" https://www.sableinternational.com/b...riple-descent-). This says "normally" it comes from a grandparent born in the UK/Ireland: https://www.whatpassport.com/countri...y_post_1982%29. It seems like, if the general basis of your application is sound, that your mom could have a claim but I'm not sure if you can because of right of abode. But again, I'm not an expert! There are some on this forum so I do hope they chime in.

If you don't get a definitive no from anyone about right of abode, I'd still apply and pay just the 80 pounds for the ceremony fee and see what happens. They refund that if it's not successful.

Last edited by Glassybell; Sep 15th 2023 at 11:14 pm.
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Old Sep 15th 2023, 11:19 pm
  #173  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Oh wait, I'm a dope. I was looking at the original 1971 Act, when I think you need to use either what was in force in 1983 or now, not sure. Page 6 of that guide implies it wouldn't matter about your grandparent, etc. So yeah, you definitely need someone (not me!) who understands right of abode to help you here!

I think this is the version you would go by: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/61/section/39

Last edited by Glassybell; Sep 15th 2023 at 11:23 pm.
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Old Sep 16th 2023, 8:17 am
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Glassybell Your mother should be able to apply, as she has ROA via her grandmother, but there’s a good chance the Home Office will reject your application. My friends submitted theirs on the same basis a year ago and are still waiting to hear back! Their mother (whose grandmother was born in the UK) was successful, however.

My friends (and you) were subject to gender discrimination but would have become British Overseas Citizens in 1983 as you wouldn’t have been CUKCs with ROA.

The optimist in me in saying the Home Office are debating their case though, and there’s still a chance they’ll be approved. I will keep you updated!
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Old Sep 16th 2023, 3:18 pm
  #175  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by carl_robson
Glassybell Your mother should be able to apply, as she has ROA via her grandmother, but there’s a good chance the Home Office will reject your application. My friends submitted theirs on the same basis a year ago and are still waiting to hear back! Their mother (whose grandmother was born in the UK) was successful, however.

My friends (and you) were subject to gender discrimination but would have become British Overseas Citizens in 1983 as you wouldn’t have been CUKCs with ROA.

The optimist in me in saying the Home Office are debating their case though, and there’s still a chance they’ll be approved. I will keep you updated!
I think you meant to tag thepollyannasociety in your comment - I've already had a successful app based on my grandmother. Glad to hear of other successful cases!
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Old Sep 26th 2023, 6:43 am
  #176  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Snowy45
So I am almost at 8 weeks now and still waiting on biometrics invitation and payment. But based on your reply, it seems I must just wait it out. Don’t understand why it can’t be online submitted. Thanks for your feedback.
HI Snowy45

Did you get any further with your application? We just hit the 6 month mark since submitting. Nothing further yet. If anyone else is in a similar boat or has been recently, would love to hear what your experiences are at this stage. Submitted biometrics in early June.

Thanks guys.
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Old Sep 30th 2023, 9:02 pm
  #177  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by aartsuk
HI Snowy45

Did you get any further with your application? We just hit the 6 month mark since submitting. Nothing further yet. If anyone else is in a similar boat or has been recently, would love to hear what your experiences are at this stage. Submitted biometrics in early June.

Thanks guys.
I did finally get biometrics invitation in early August, but haven’t heard anything back, except an email request of 5 year address history even though this information was on the form. I am a few weeks away still from the 6 months mark and am hoping to hear by that point.
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Old Sep 30th 2023, 10:59 pm
  #178  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by aartsuk
HI Snowy45

Did you get any further with your application? We just hit the 6 month mark since submitting. Nothing further yet. If anyone else is in a similar boat or has been recently, would love to hear what your experiences are at this stage. Submitted biometrics in early June.

Thanks guys.
You are not at the six-month mark until six months after your bometrics were done.That is when the clock starts, and if no decision, you email them.
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Old Oct 8th 2023, 1:09 am
  #179  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

What is the email address that people outside of the UK have used to get into contact in regard to citizenship applications already lodged with UKVI?
I read on the Gov.UK website that I can request return of a passport without the application process being cancelled or withdrawn. Is [email protected] the right place to start? Or am I best off telephoning?
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Old Oct 8th 2023, 3:49 am
  #180  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Henndigo
What is the email address that people outside of the UK have used to get into contact in regard to citizenship applications already lodged with UKVI?
I read on the Gov.UK website that I can request return of a passport without the application process being cancelled or withdrawn. Is [email protected] the right place to start? Or am I best off telephoning?
Yes, that is the email address to use.
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