British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Old Jul 22nd 2023, 8:31 pm
  #136  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Thank you so much for your speedy reply. My grandmother was born in England (Banstead, Surrey).

You're amazing. I'll go ahead and use the narrative you've laid out along with referencing the discrimination in Right to register under BNA 1981 9(1), while emphasising SA as a foreign country.

Do you know many applicants that have been successful applying this route in their own? Ie, without an immigration specialst etc. Is my case pretty straight forward?

One last question, in the ARD form, I'm confused by the wording used and not sure which answer to pick:

1.4 (a) Would you have been able to become a British citizen through registration or
naturalisation, but for historical legislative unfairness, an act or omission by a public body or
because you have exceptional circumstances, that prevented you becoming a British citizen?


OR

(b) Would you have had an automatic claim to British Citizenship, but for historical
legislative unfairness, an act or omission by a public body or because you have exceptional
circumstances, that prevented you becoming a British citizen?


Thank you!!

Last edited by MellySA; Jul 22nd 2023 at 8:39 pm.
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Old Jul 22nd 2023, 10:43 pm
  #137  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by MellySA
Thank you so much for your speedy reply. My grandmother was born in England (Banstead, Surrey).

You're amazing. I'll go ahead and use the narrative you've laid out along with referencing the discrimination in Right to register under BNA 1981 9(1), while emphasising SA as a foreign country.

Do you know many applicants that have been successful applying this route in their own? Ie, without an immigration specialst etc. Is my case pretty straight forward?

One last question, in the ARD form, I'm confused by the wording used and not sure which answer to pick:

1.4 (a) Would you have been able to become a British citizen through registration or
naturalisation, but for historical legislative unfairness, an act or omission by a public body or
because you have exceptional circumstances, that prevented you becoming a British citizen?


OR

(b) Would you have had an automatic claim to British Citizenship, but for historical
legislative unfairness, an act or omission by a public body or because you have exceptional
circumstances, that prevented you becoming a British citizen?


Thank you!!
There have been several people on this forum who have had succesful 4L CBR claims with the same background as yours (grandmother UK, mother SA, applicant SA 1983-1987). I know of a few more cases through another forum and many more have used Sable or one of the SA firms. Your case is straightforward.

I would mark 1.4 (a). They will understand when you state how you are eligible.

Your case falls under example 14 of the caseworker guidance, perhaps mention that and which caseworker guidance you are referencing:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...stances_V2.pdf

If your parents were not married at the time of your birth you will need to also mention that the 9(1) marriage requirement was another example of historical legislative unfairness. Were they married?

Ensure you enclose the documents they request. You will need certificates (check their list but commonly requested documents would include your grandmother UK birth certificate/grandfather's birth certificate & their marriage certificate, mother's & father's birth certificate & marriage certificates, mother's british passport number, perhaps mother's registration certificate (4C is proof of gender discrimination), your birth certificate, your passport (or colour copies of said passport), and so on).



Last edited by jmin; Jul 22nd 2023 at 10:46 pm.
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Old Jul 22nd 2023, 11:02 pm
  #138  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Thank you so much for taking the time to write back and answer my questions. And for the tip to mention Example 14 as stated in the caseworker guidance.
My parents were married at the time of my birth - does this change anything?

Again, I can't thank you enough for your help. You've potentially saved me a tonne of money. The reason I'm mostly keen on this route rather than ancestry, is because as I understand, should I be successful I can apply for my sons citizenship, saving us thousands in NHS fees.
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Old Jul 23rd 2023, 12:00 am
  #139  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by MellySA
My parents were married at the time of my birth - does this change anything?

Again, I can't thank you enough for your help. You've potentially saved me a tonne of money. The reason I'm mostly keen on this route rather than ancestry, is because as I understand, should I be successful I can apply for my sons citizenship, saving us thousands in NHS fees.
No, it does not change anything. It is simpler as you do not have to also explain how the marriage requirement was an example of historical legislative unfairness. You can use this line in the explanation:
  • At the time of my birth, my mother was married to my father (although whether or not they were married is immaterial as it is also historical legislative unfairness) - insert date of marriage
See edit at bottom I see how Sable is arguing this: (How would you apply for your son's citizenship? Your mother is by descent (BNA 1981 14(1)(d)) so 3 years after moving to the UK with new passport? (BNA 3(5)). The child will be under 18 when the three year period ends? I know Sable promotes such a solution but I believe it is based on two scenarios 1.) if your mother was otherwise than by descent then your 3 year residence in the UK before child's birth or 2.) if your mother was by descent (which she is) then your 3 year residence in the UK sometime before the application and the child's 18th birthday.)

If your brothers were born 83-87 they can also apply although perhaps they prefer to naturalize?

Best of luck and for your information, many of these applications are being processed quite rapidly so you might hear back a few months after you submit the application.

Edit: For your son -> I think sable might be relying on 4L not being listed directly in BNA 1981 14 but 9(1) registrations are listed as by descent only. This is a very interesting omission although it would seem to not be the intent to make 4L registrations through a 9(1) route otherwise than by descent so the Home Office might contest this. That said, you could argue that if they meant to include 4L in BNA 1981 14 they could have since 4B, 4C, parts of 4G-I, 4K, and so on are listed. I would ask sable if they have had any succesful registrations using this route. Very interesting although I am not certain what exactly their argument is (how the child is entitled to register or are they arguing the child is automatically british although born before your 4L registration or are they relying on another 4L claim for the child)

Last edited by jmin; Jul 23rd 2023 at 12:26 am.
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Old Jul 26th 2023, 5:42 am
  #140  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

I've been in contact with Sable who, naturally, are holding their cards close to their chest.

They claim it's their intellectual property as they've done the research. Allegedly, they are also the only agency applying for childrens citizenship based on the potential success of my application. They claim they have a 100% success rate with these applications. My assumption is that they are arguing my child would be considered automatically British, based on their confidence and the ability to apply immediately without a 3-year waiting period.

If I find out anymore info, I'll report back. Hoping some other forum users could shed some light if they've had any success with this.
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Old Jul 27th 2023, 2:38 am
  #141  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by MellySA
I've been in contact with Sable who, naturally, are holding their cards close to their chest.

They claim it's their intellectual property as they've done the research. Allegedly, they are also the only agency applying for childrens citizenship based on the potential success of my application. They claim they have a 100% success rate with these applications. My assumption is that they are arguing my child would be considered automatically British, based on their confidence and the ability to apply immediately without a 3-year waiting period.

If I find out anymore info, I'll report back. Hoping some other forum users could shed some light if they've had any success with this.
I researched this briefly it is a 3(1) registration by discretion. The Home Office's instructions relevant to your case can be found on pages 19-20 of the following guidance:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...-_children.pdf

You must normally register a child if: the child was born before the parent registered under one of the above sections
The "above sections" are sections 4G, 4H, 4I, and 4L. The wording is somewhat confusing as they first focus on children born after a successful 4L application, not those born before.

What the guidance means is that a minor child of someone who registered under 4L will have a succesful 3(1) registration. This is very interesting!

Submit your 4L registration and once approved, submit the 3(1) registration referencing the linked guidance.

Edit: You will also need to show that both parents agree to the 3(1) registration and that the child's future lies in the UK. How you show that the child's future lies in the UK will depend on the child's age.

Last edited by jmin; Jul 27th 2023 at 2:59 am.
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Old Jul 27th 2023, 7:55 am
  #142  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

This is good to know, thank you for confirming!

Perhaps I’m overthinking it, but why wouldn’t adult children be eligible for registration if one of their parents is granted it on an otherwise than descent basis? Could such individuals potential argue that this is (somewhat ironically) gender discrimination? Many adults could easily demonstrate that their future lies in the UK and would jump at the chance if available by this route.
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Old Jul 27th 2023, 6:47 pm
  #143  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by carl_robson
This is good to know, thank you for confirming!

Perhaps I’m overthinking it, but why wouldn’t adult children be eligible for registration if one of their parents is granted it on an otherwise than descent basis? Could such individuals potential argue that this is (somewhat ironically) gender discrimination? Many adults could easily demonstrate that their future lies in the UK and would jump at the chance if available by this route.
Because the otherwise than descent basis does not apply to children (minor or adult) born before the registration occured. Born before the registration = not a citizen. Born after the registration = British citizen by descent. The guidance from the Home Office that you linked in a previous post addresses this.

What the same guidance says is that minor children of a parent registered under 4C, 4G, 4H, 4I, or 4L can be registered under section 3 because the Home Office has decided that registration discretion should be given if both parents consent and the child's life will be in the UK. This discretion is not about the parent being otherwise than by descent. Section 3 only applies to minor children so discretion under this section cannot be granted to adults. In the case of minor children of 4L parents, the purpose appears to be to facilitate a family move to the UK while removing the 3 year requirement (which particularly benefits minor children who are 15+).

Last edited by jmin; Jul 27th 2023 at 6:51 pm.
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Old Jul 28th 2023, 10:53 pm
  #144  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Hi Everyone,
I recently came across this amazing forum, and I must say the discussions here have been incredibly helpful.
My situation is very similar to MellySA, except my mother was born in Southern Rhodesia and not South Africa. Would I still have a claim, and would I use the same reasons as suggested to MellySA?

Thank you
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Old Jul 29th 2023, 12:22 am
  #145  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by ARheeder
Hi Everyone,
I recently came across this amazing forum, and I must say the discussions here have been incredibly helpful.
My situation is very similar to MellySA, except my mother was born in Southern Rhodesia and not South Africa. Would I still have a claim, and would I use the same reasons as suggested to MellySA?

Thank you
To provide an accurate answer you will need to provide more details.

Paternal and maternal grandparents place of birth, year of birth, and marriage year. Parents place of birth, year of birth, and marriage year. Your year of birth and country of birth.
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Old Jul 30th 2023, 8:06 pm
  #146  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Thanks for all your helpful responses to date. I have a potential claim under Section 4L of the BNA that I was hoping to get some feedback on. My factual scenario is set out below.

The basis for my ARD application is that my father applied to the Home Office for UK citizenship in January 1990 having been a resident and working in the UK for several years i.e. his application was not based on parent or grandparent rights.

After nearly two years my father's naturalisation certificate was issued by the Home Office, in November 1991.

I was born in June 1991 in New Zealand i.e. after my father submitted the application but before the naturalisation certificate was issued.

The argument would therefore be that I should not be disadvantaged by virtue of
the Home Office taking 22 months to process a straightforward naturalisation
application i.e. the length of time taken by the Home Office was "an act or omission of a public authority".

During those 22 months, there was no contact from the Home Office, no questions were asked and no additional information or material was provided by my father to the Home Office.

But for the length of time taken by the Home Office to process the naturalisation application I would have automatically been a British citizen as my father would have been a British citizen when I was born (and was married to my mother at the time) and my father had applied for that citizenship in his own right (by virtue of being a resident and working in the UK for a number of years).

Given I would have had an automatic right to British citizenship, the application fee shouldn't be payable so it comes down to whether the above is a legitimate claim or not under the BNA.

The closest example in the ARD guidance to my set of facts would be example 12 - the application for adoption was made when he was 16 but the adoption proceedings were not completed until after his 18th birthday. If the adoption had been finalised before he was 18, he would have become a British citizen automatically . As he was over 18, he did not become a British citizen. I note the guidance describes this as an "exceptional circumstance" rather than "an act or omission" so it may be worth arguing down that limb when I submit the application.
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Old Jul 30th 2023, 9:00 pm
  #147  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by jmin
To provide an accurate answer you will need to provide more details.

Paternal and maternal grandparents place of birth, year of birth, and marriage year. Parents place of birth, year of birth, and marriage year. Your year of birth and country of birth.
Thank you for the reply
My Paternal Grandfather was born in South Africa (Natal) in 1927
My paternal Grandmother was born in South Africa in 1931
They were married in 1951

My Maternal Grandfather was born in Southern Rhodesia in 1924
My Maternal Grandmother was Born in the UK in 1934
They were married in 1956

My Father was born in Northern Rhodesia in 1954
My Mother was born in Southern Rhodesia in 1960
They were married in 1979

I was born in South Africa in 1983

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Old Jul 30th 2023, 9:49 pm
  #148  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Minimum_Watch1238
Thanks for all your helpful responses to date. I have a potential claim under Section 4L of the BNA that I was hoping to get some feedback on. My factual scenario is set out below.

The basis for my ARD application is that my father applied to the Home Office for UK citizenship in January 1990 having been a resident and working in the UK for several years i.e. his application was not based on parent or grandparent rights.

After nearly two years my father's naturalisation certificate was issued by the Home Office, in November 1991.

I was born in June 1991 in New Zealand i.e. after my father submitted the application but before the naturalisation certificate was issued.

The argument would therefore be that I should not be disadvantaged by virtue of
the Home Office taking 22 months to process a straightforward naturalisation
application i.e. the length of time taken by the Home Office was "an act or omission of a public authority".

During those 22 months, there was no contact from the Home Office, no questions were asked and no additional information or material was provided by my father to the Home Office.

But for the length of time taken by the Home Office to process the naturalisation application I would have automatically been a British citizen as my father would have been a British citizen when I was born (and was married to my mother at the time) and my father had applied for that citizenship in his own right (by virtue of being a resident and working in the UK for a number of years).

Given I would have had an automatic right to British citizenship, the application fee shouldn't be payable so it comes down to whether the above is a legitimate claim or not under the BNA.

The closest example in the ARD guidance to my set of facts would be example 12 - the application for adoption was made when he was 16 but the adoption proceedings were not completed until after his 18th birthday. If the adoption had been finalised before he was 18, he would have become a British citizen automatically . As he was over 18, he did not become a British citizen. I note the guidance describes this as an "exceptional circumstance" rather than "an act or omission" so it may be worth arguing down that limb when I submit the application.
Do you have a grandparent that was born in the UK? Both parents are from NZ?

Narrowly focusing on your 4L argument and not whether there is another route, the Home Office is unlikely to consider the timeline for a naturalisation application as a historical legislative unfairness, act or ommission, or an exceptional circumstance. The Home Office refuses to accept that their timelines are unfair and instead say that each application is treated individually and takes as long as necessary (checks and the like). You would need proof that the reason the application took 22 months was because it was essentially lost, which is likely impossible to prove. A 4L decision that all children born after an extended naturalisation process would not be something that the Home Office would want to do.

Although perhaps your father's naturalisation was the only one or one of a few that took that long to process. (Timelines were generally more compressed in the 90s). Perhaps make a FOI request yourself for historical naturalisation processing timelines and find a way to prove that his application was actually routine with no checks that took time (latter would be difficult to prove, your father would need to request a copy of his Home Office paper file as relates to the naturalisation). You would need to show why your case is exceptional and that the Home Office made a mistake.

The adoption case is not very similar to yours because it about a 1(5) claim, the courts, and a child living in the UK whose adoption process began before their 18th birthday.
(5)Where—
(a)any court in the United Kingdom [F14or, on or after the appointed day, any court in a qualifying territory] makes an order authorising the adoption of a minor who is not a British citizen; or
(b)a minor who is not a British citizen is adopted under a Convention adoption [F15effected under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom],that minor shall, if the requirements of subsection (5A) are met, be a British citizen as from the date on which the order is made or the Convention adoption is effected, as the case may be.
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Old Aug 1st 2023, 12:13 am
  #149  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by ARheeder
Thank you for the reply
My Paternal Grandfather was born in South Africa (Natal) in 1927
My paternal Grandmother was born in South Africa in 1931
They were married in 1951

My Maternal Grandfather was born in Southern Rhodesia in 1924
My Maternal Grandmother was Born in the UK in 1934
They were married in 1956

My Father was born in Northern Rhodesia in 1954
My Mother was born in Southern Rhodesia in 1960
They were married in 1979

I was born in South Africa in 1983
Do your mother (or father) have British citizenship? If so, when and how did she acquire it? If she does not, she can acquire it through registration. Southern Rhodesia is complex in terms of British nationality law and I want to write a claim that addresses your situation. You are lucky to have been born in South Africa instead of Zimbabwe because a birth in Zim would not lead to a claim through this route.

When did your parents move to South Africa? Were they residing in South Africa immediately before 1983?
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Old Aug 1st 2023, 7:23 am
  #150  
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Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

My mother has her British citizenship, she acquired it through her mother (decent), but only recently (2019).
My parents moved to South Africa in 1980. My father was South African by decent, and my mother applied for neutralization.
Could my father apply for citizenship through my mother?

Thank you so much, for taking the time to help.
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