Advice on non-standard UKM application
Aug 8th 2017, 1:20 am
#1
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Posts: 6
Advice on non-standard UKM application
Hi,
I have what I believe is a non-standard UKM application under section 4(c) and I would like to have some input and wise words of advice in terms of applying myself or to use the services of a specialist immigration solicitor.
Below is the situation:
1. I was born outside the UK after 1963 and before 1983 and my mother was a UK citizen at the time - and married to my father (a non-UK citizen).
2. I would have been registered shortly after my birth if UK citizenship was possible via the mother at that time.
3. Right of abode - this is where I am not so sure.
My mother was born in 1945 in Zambia (Northern Rhodesia & a UK protectorate at the time) to married UK citizen parents (neither born in UK mainland but in British colonies, and both of British born parents). My mothers national status is listed as: Section 12(3), British Nationality Act 1948 so hard to say if she is considered "British by descent" or "British otherwise than by descent". Her father was in the Crown Service at the time of my mothers birth and "profession of father" is stated as civil servant on her birth cert.
From what I can make out it would appear that my grandfather's long serving career in the Crown Service would help but I would not know how to correctly articulate this in an application.
It would be good to get some wise counsel by those in the know on this forum as to which route to take. Obviously the wording of a non-standard application is key and hence my leaning towards using a solicitor to position the argument correctly. Any pointers would be much appreciated.
I have what I believe is a non-standard UKM application under section 4(c) and I would like to have some input and wise words of advice in terms of applying myself or to use the services of a specialist immigration solicitor.
Below is the situation:
1. I was born outside the UK after 1963 and before 1983 and my mother was a UK citizen at the time - and married to my father (a non-UK citizen).
2. I would have been registered shortly after my birth if UK citizenship was possible via the mother at that time.
3. Right of abode - this is where I am not so sure.
My mother was born in 1945 in Zambia (Northern Rhodesia & a UK protectorate at the time) to married UK citizen parents (neither born in UK mainland but in British colonies, and both of British born parents). My mothers national status is listed as: Section 12(3), British Nationality Act 1948 so hard to say if she is considered "British by descent" or "British otherwise than by descent". Her father was in the Crown Service at the time of my mothers birth and "profession of father" is stated as civil servant on her birth cert.From what I can make out it would appear that my grandfather's long serving career in the Crown Service would help but I would not know how to correctly articulate this in an application.
It would be good to get some wise counsel by those in the know on this forum as to which route to take. Obviously the wording of a non-standard application is key and hence my leaning towards using a solicitor to position the argument correctly. Any pointers would be much appreciated.
Aug 8th 2017, 7:57 am
#2
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 526
Re: Advice on non-standard UKM application
Hi,
I have what I believe is a non-standard UKM application under section 4(c) and I would like to have some input and wise words of advice in terms of applying myself or to use the services of a specialist immigration solicitor.
Below is the situation:
1. I was born outside the UK after 1963 and before 1983 and my mother was a UK citizen at the time - and married to my father (a non-UK citizen).
2. I would have been registered shortly after my birth if UK citizenship was possible via the mother at that time.
3. Right of abode - this is where I am not so sure. My mother was born in 1945 in Zambia (Northern Rhodesia & a UK protectorate at the time) to married UK citizen parents (neither born in UK mainland but in British colonies, and both of British born parents). My mothers national status is listed as: Section 12(3), British Nationality Act 1948 so hard to say if she is considered "British by descent" or "British otherwise than by descent". Her father was in the Crown Service at the time of my mothers birth and "profession of father" is stated as civil servant on her birth cert.
From what I can make out it would appear that my grandfather's long serving career in the Crown Service would help but I would not know how to correctly articulate this in an application.
It would be good to get some wise counsel by those in the know on this forum as to which route to take. Obviously the wording of a non-standard application is key and hence my leaning towards using a solicitor to position the argument correctly. Any pointers would be much appreciated.
I have what I believe is a non-standard UKM application under section 4(c) and I would like to have some input and wise words of advice in terms of applying myself or to use the services of a specialist immigration solicitor.
Below is the situation:
1. I was born outside the UK after 1963 and before 1983 and my mother was a UK citizen at the time - and married to my father (a non-UK citizen).
2. I would have been registered shortly after my birth if UK citizenship was possible via the mother at that time.
3. Right of abode - this is where I am not so sure.
My mother was born in 1945 in Zambia (Northern Rhodesia & a UK protectorate at the time) to married UK citizen parents (neither born in UK mainland but in British colonies, and both of British born parents). My mothers national status is listed as: Section 12(3), British Nationality Act 1948 so hard to say if she is considered "British by descent" or "British otherwise than by descent". Her father was in the Crown Service at the time of my mothers birth and "profession of father" is stated as civil servant on her birth cert.From what I can make out it would appear that my grandfather's long serving career in the Crown Service would help but I would not know how to correctly articulate this in an application.
It would be good to get some wise counsel by those in the know on this forum as to which route to take. Obviously the wording of a non-standard application is key and hence my leaning towards using a solicitor to position the argument correctly. Any pointers would be much appreciated.
Where and in what year were you born? That will be relevant.
You could do a free on line assessment at whatpassport to start with.
Non standard applications for BC do need to be worded so as to quote the relevant acts and laws demonstrating entitlement, in order to be successful. With a grandparent in Crown service it can be more straightforward, but you need to provide evidence. Although you say your mother's parents were not born in the UK.
Hopefully britinparis will advise you on that further.
Here are some of threads on similar, but not the same, issues:
http://britishexpats.com/forum/citiz...decent-892853/
http://britishexpats.com/forum/citiz...decent-856541/
http://britishexpats.com/forum/citiz.../#post11937822
http://britishexpats.com/forum/citiz...odesia-864173/
Aug 8th 2017, 10:36 am
#3
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Joined: Aug 2017
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Re: Advice on non-standard UKM application
Hi Angie,
Many thanks for your reply and very useful links and threads. In terms of your initial question re place and year of birth, I was born in South Africa in 1971 so would not qualify for automatic British citizenship even if my mother was deemed to be born BC otherwise than by descent.
In terms of the posts regarding proving grandparents employment in the Crown Service, I have only had access to online records which don't hold much water specific to my application. My mother has requested information from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office and received a scanned copy of the Northern Rhodesian administration document which are not likely to meet muster of the UKM application. I am guessing that I would need to get a notarised copy made which I am thinking will prove easier said than done. What also isn't helping is that they destroy the records of employees after they reach the age of 85 or 5 years after death (out on both counts). In terms of his recruitment to the Crown Service, finding conclusive information of him being recruited in the UK is proving difficult. Unverified (i.e. no original documents) at this point is that:
1. He completed a law degree in South Africa then left for the UK and qualified as a barrister.
2. After that he was sponsored by the Colonial Administrative Service to attend a course at a UK university as a Colonial Office Administrative Probationer.
3. After that he was posted to Zambia (Northern Rhodesia as it was known then) starting as a provincial administration cadet.
So at the moment still an uphill struggle to validate this info. Would you know if all supporting documents (copies or affidavits) need to be notarised by a UK solicitor to be accepted?
Thanks again.
KB
Many thanks for your reply and very useful links and threads. In terms of your initial question re place and year of birth, I was born in South Africa in 1971 so would not qualify for automatic British citizenship even if my mother was deemed to be born BC otherwise than by descent.
In terms of the posts regarding proving grandparents employment in the Crown Service, I have only had access to online records which don't hold much water specific to my application. My mother has requested information from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office and received a scanned copy of the Northern Rhodesian administration document which are not likely to meet muster of the UKM application. I am guessing that I would need to get a notarised copy made which I am thinking will prove easier said than done. What also isn't helping is that they destroy the records of employees after they reach the age of 85 or 5 years after death (out on both counts). In terms of his recruitment to the Crown Service, finding conclusive information of him being recruited in the UK is proving difficult. Unverified (i.e. no original documents) at this point is that:
1. He completed a law degree in South Africa then left for the UK and qualified as a barrister.
2. After that he was sponsored by the Colonial Administrative Service to attend a course at a UK university as a Colonial Office Administrative Probationer.
3. After that he was posted to Zambia (Northern Rhodesia as it was known then) starting as a provincial administration cadet.
So at the moment still an uphill struggle to validate this info. Would you know if all supporting documents (copies or affidavits) need to be notarised by a UK solicitor to be accepted?
Thanks again.
KB
Aug 8th 2017, 1:25 pm
#4
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 526
Re: Advice on non-standard UKM application
Hi Angie,
Many thanks for your reply and very useful links and threads. In terms of your initial question re place and year of birth, I was born in South Africa in 1971 so would not qualify for automatic British citizenship even if my mother was deemed to be born BC otherwise than by descent.
In terms of the posts regarding proving grandparents employment in the Crown Service, I have only had access to online records which don't hold much water specific to my application. My mother has requested information from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office and received a scanned copy of the Northern Rhodesian administration document which are not likely to meet muster of the UKM application. I am guessing that I would need to get a notarised copy made which I am thinking will prove easier said than done. What also isn't helping is that they destroy the records of employees after they reach the age of 85 or 5 years after death (out on both counts). In terms of his recruitment to the Crown Service, finding conclusive information of him being recruited in the UK is proving difficult. Unverified (i.e. no original documents) at this point is that:
1. He completed a law degree in South Africa then left for the UK and qualified as a barrister.
2. After that he was sponsored by the Colonial Administrative Service to attend a course at a UK university as a Colonial Office Administrative Probationer.
3. After that he was posted to Zambia (Northern Rhodesia as it was known then) starting as a provincial administration cadet.
So at the moment still an uphill struggle to validate this info. Would you know if all supporting documents (copies or affidavits) need to be notarised by a UK solicitor to be accepted?
Thanks again.
KB
Many thanks for your reply and very useful links and threads. In terms of your initial question re place and year of birth, I was born in South Africa in 1971 so would not qualify for automatic British citizenship even if my mother was deemed to be born BC otherwise than by descent.
In terms of the posts regarding proving grandparents employment in the Crown Service, I have only had access to online records which don't hold much water specific to my application. My mother has requested information from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office and received a scanned copy of the Northern Rhodesian administration document which are not likely to meet muster of the UKM application. I am guessing that I would need to get a notarised copy made which I am thinking will prove easier said than done. What also isn't helping is that they destroy the records of employees after they reach the age of 85 or 5 years after death (out on both counts). In terms of his recruitment to the Crown Service, finding conclusive information of him being recruited in the UK is proving difficult. Unverified (i.e. no original documents) at this point is that:
1. He completed a law degree in South Africa then left for the UK and qualified as a barrister.
2. After that he was sponsored by the Colonial Administrative Service to attend a course at a UK university as a Colonial Office Administrative Probationer.
3. After that he was posted to Zambia (Northern Rhodesia as it was known then) starting as a provincial administration cadet.
So at the moment still an uphill struggle to validate this info. Would you know if all supporting documents (copies or affidavits) need to be notarised by a UK solicitor to be accepted?
Thanks again.
KB
The FCO was the place to go. I do not know if you would need to certify a photocopy. If it’s from an official record, possibly not.
There are sources of historical records like ‘gazette.co.uk’ for colonial appointments so you could try and search on his name.
see also
Colonies and dependencies: further research - The National Archives
Civil or crown servants - The National Archives
https://microform.digital/boa/collec...esia-1924-1948
Aug 15th 2017, 7:03 pm
#5
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 6
Re: Advice on non-standard UKM application
I am no expert but I think the records could be found of your grandfather as he was at University in the UK. The issue may be what status, at that time, your grandfather held, not being born in UK, but being British and then being sent out from Britain as a colonial administrator. Also hopefully someone on the forum will advise on your mother’s BC status and hence your position.
Many thanks for your pointers. Having done a little more digging, I have managed to track down some records of him being in the Crown Service from the Northern Rhodesian Government Gazette. Unfortunately I cannot confirm if he was recruited in the UK, and worse still is that the Foreign Office state that they delete personnel records 5 years after death so its unlikely that anything will come of it. A correction to my initial post is that my maternal grandfather left South Africa after his law degree and went to Oxford to complete a years Colonial Administrative Course. This was all circa 1930 so not easy to track down detailed information and records.
In terms of my maternal grandfathers UK citizenship, his father (maternal great grandfather) was born in Northern Ireland so he would have been considered a British Subject. In his last passport he is shown as a British Citizen.
Even if my mother is classified as a CUKC OTBD by virtue of Sec 12(3) of BNA 1948, I still fall short in the UKM Right of Abode requirements as my mother (or her parents) were not born in the UK (England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland). As such it looks like my chances of British citizenship would not amount to anything. Thanks again for your valuable input Angie, much appreciated.
Cheers,
KB
Aug 17th 2017, 6:53 am
#6
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 526
Re: Advice on non-standard UKM application
Hi Angie,
Many thanks for your pointers. Having done a little more digging, I have managed to track down some records of him being in the Crown Service from the Northern Rhodesian Government Gazette. Unfortunately I cannot confirm if he was recruited in the UK, and worse still is that the Foreign Office state that they delete personnel records 5 years after death so its unlikely that anything will come of it. A correction to my initial post is that my maternal grandfather left South Africa after his law degree and went to Oxford to complete a years Colonial Administrative Course. This was all circa 1930 so not easy to track down detailed information and records.
In terms of my maternal grandfathers UK citizenship, his father (maternal great grandfather) was born in Northern Ireland so he would have been considered a British Subject. In his last passport he is shown as a British Citizen.
Even if my mother is classified as a CUKC OTBD by virtue of Sec 12(3) of BNA 1948, I still fall short in the UKM Right of Abode requirements as my mother (or her parents) were not born in the UK (England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland). As such it looks like my chances of British citizenship would not amount to anything. Thanks again for your valuable input Angie, much appreciated.
Cheers,
KB
Many thanks for your pointers. Having done a little more digging, I have managed to track down some records of him being in the Crown Service from the Northern Rhodesian Government Gazette. Unfortunately I cannot confirm if he was recruited in the UK, and worse still is that the Foreign Office state that they delete personnel records 5 years after death so its unlikely that anything will come of it. A correction to my initial post is that my maternal grandfather left South Africa after his law degree and went to Oxford to complete a years Colonial Administrative Course. This was all circa 1930 so not easy to track down detailed information and records.
In terms of my maternal grandfathers UK citizenship, his father (maternal great grandfather) was born in Northern Ireland so he would have been considered a British Subject. In his last passport he is shown as a British Citizen.
Even if my mother is classified as a CUKC OTBD by virtue of Sec 12(3) of BNA 1948, I still fall short in the UKM Right of Abode requirements as my mother (or her parents) were not born in the UK (England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland). As such it looks like my chances of British citizenship would not amount to anything. Thanks again for your valuable input Angie, much appreciated.
Cheers,
KB
There is reference to occasional right to BC via great grandparents and Rhodesia- though from the dates this example does not apply to your case- but shows how many factors need to be taken into account.
https://www.whatpassport.com/countri...Dissolution%29
Another interesting thread on Rhodesia here:
http://britishexpats.com/forum/citiz...escent-844599/
Also your grandfather spent time in the UK, which may be material. If you wrote to Oxford they would have records of your father and his Colonial Administration Course. Alumni Office, University of Oxford,Wellington. Square Oxford, OX1 2JD
If it is a critical issue for you to get BC you may wish to delve further. I recently spoke to the Philip Gamble team and asked if the results of a ‘status trace’ ( cost £350)were always clear cut or definitive. .
They said ‘Often the result is clear cut, yes or no- but at times there are anomalies and loopholes which are open to interpretation. If so, PG can make a case stating his interpretation of the laws in an application for BC on behalf of the client'.
The other option is to write out your history, in detail, and ask for a quote for an opinion by Garden Chambers Barristers where Fransman and Berry are based. They wrote the definitive book ‘ Fransman’s British Nationality Law’ 3rd Ed. He is South African originally by the way. Last time I asked for a friend of mine in SA with a complex history, it was approx £900 for an opinion.
Who are the British? - Press Release for Fransman's British Nationality Law, Third Edition - Bloomsbury Law Online
A guide from Home Office on applications-: ‘Whether you have British Nationality is a matter that can be determined conclusively only by the courts’.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...014-update.pdf
Best wishes in your quest.
Aug 17th 2017, 2:00 pm
#7
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 6
Re: Advice on non-standard UKM application
Hi Angie,
Thanks so much for your efforts in gathering and sharing this very useful information. It is greatly appreciated my way. You are a star.
BC is important to me as a great deal of my heritage is British with my grandparents and mum very much British in their ways and the work they did. I will certainly consider getting some counsel from Mr Fransman in terms of exploring further and will take a good look at the Fransman's British Nationality Law as well.
Many thanks and Best Wishes,
KB
Thanks so much for your efforts in gathering and sharing this very useful information. It is greatly appreciated my way. You are a star.
BC is important to me as a great deal of my heritage is British with my grandparents and mum very much British in their ways and the work they did. I will certainly consider getting some counsel from Mr Fransman in terms of exploring further and will take a good look at the Fransman's British Nationality Law as well.
Many thanks and Best Wishes,
KB
Aug 17th 2017, 2:52 pm
#8
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 526
Re: Advice on non-standard UKM application
Hi Angie,
Thanks so much for your efforts in gathering and sharing this very useful information. It is greatly appreciated my way. You are a star.
BC is important to me as a great deal of my heritage is British with my grandparents and mum very much British in their ways and the work they did. I will certainly consider getting some counsel from Mr Fransman in terms of exploring further and will take a good look at the Fransman's British Nationality Law as well.
Many thanks and Best Wishes,
KB
Thanks so much for your efforts in gathering and sharing this very useful information. It is greatly appreciated my way. You are a star.
BC is important to me as a great deal of my heritage is British with my grandparents and mum very much British in their ways and the work they did. I will certainly consider getting some counsel from Mr Fransman in terms of exploring further and will take a good look at the Fransman's British Nationality Law as well.
Many thanks and Best Wishes,
KB
Good luck with that. If I were in your shoes I would suggest the fixed price status trace with PG would be a good place to start, as that written report will show if there are any potential areas to explore or not. They do have a lot of experience with Colonies and Africa and do many, many, applications for BC.
Then if the report showed any possibilities, you could see what the odds were if they thought an application had a chance of success, or not. That way you limit your costs and may have a better idea if BC can be pursued, or not, and you would have a report with reference to laws at the time etc.
IF it were potentially legally arguable and PG application failed, the next escalation would be the direct access barrister/ Fransman is a QC – though you would probably deal with Adrian Berry. Costs in the UK are very expensive and can escalate, so it is best to negotiate a fixed fee, where possible, for any legal work. Of course you could also get an opinion from them to start with.
Out of interest I found a case that was won about the maternal line to BC, by a woman whose mother was born in SA, but had a British father. She was unable to register the daughter's birth with the B Consulate, as at the law at the time there was no option down the maternal line.
(perhaps not relevant to your situation but the legal arguments are interesting).
Synopsis
British Nationality Law judicial review success — McGill & Co
Full Case
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search...0-ff0000d74aa7
