MarylandNed

Is this a right wing newspaper?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7618994.stm

"Population density has direct implications for quality of life - it adds pressure on public services, it adds pressure on infrastructure and it adds pressure on the environment."

dbd33

The first problem with that, as I suspect you well know, is that the cost of any litigation is prohibitive. It cost $100,000 in fees to get this far and, at that time, my former spouse was resident in Canada. I shudder to think what it would cost to pursue litigation in three countries. The next is the argument that I'd reduced my income solely to evade my responsibilities, I had a duty not to do that, it might not fly but it'd take three or four years to come to court, again costing a couple of grand a month to sustain the related correspondence. Life's too short to want to get into another decade of squabbling.

AFAIK, there has been no change in circumstances so I've no reason to think a judge would make a different ruling now. My primary concern is not to evade the alimony while I'm alive, it's tax deductible anyway, but I do worry about events after my death. I carry life insurance to fund the payments after my demise, as required by the court order, but should I be unable to sustain the insurance, due to increasing age and premiums, and I die before my ex, then she'll come after my estate in lieu of support. I'd rather not leave anyone to deal with that mess. Accordingly, I plan to live forever.

Almost Canadian

Fairy nuff

Editha

I'm not having an argument with you about population density. You introduced the topic into this thread. Nobody is arguing with you that the UK is more densely populated than Canada. That has probably been true since the end of the last ice age, and for obvious reasons that are not worth discussing. That is what otiose means.

You are also just digging a deeper hole for yourself. The BBC article you found on google, from 2008, featured a Tory MP called James Clappison, whom you quote. In the MP expenses scandal in 2009, Mr Clappison was later revealed to own 24 houses and a farm (so no problems with overcrowding for him), and to have claimed £100,000 in second home expenses. He was not prosecuted and he kept his seat, but having been previously part of the shadow government, he was reduced to the back-benches after last years election.

And yes he is very right wing.

MarylandNed

That's a very selective quote. What I actually said was this:

"I have many relatives and friends in various parts of the UK who think the country has gone down the toilet quite a bit in the last 15 years or so."

Why did you leave out the first part of the sentence?

MarylandNed

And that changes the fact that the UK is overcrowded? How exactly?

If you actually go back and read the thread, population density came up as part of a discussion about overcrowding. Not that it actually matters but I did not raise the overcrowding issue - someone else did. So population density alone is not the issue - the real issue is actually overcrowding. I take it you can at least agree that population density is somewhat related to overcrowding?

The problem in the UK (and particularly in England where most immigrants settle) is that it lacks the infrastructure to adequately support its population density. This infrastructure includes everything from employment opportunities, healthcare, roads, public transportation, housing, education, prisons, public services, etc. When population densities reach a level beyond that which the infrastructure can support, you start to get overcrowding and related issues.

You start to see headlines such as these (I'll just use Guardian links since you don't trust anything "right wing"):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...rcrowded-homes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/ta...land-and-wales

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/au...rowding-london

http://www.guardian.co.uk/housing-ne...sing-in-london

You can find many more similar articles. But I don't actually need articles because I've seen overcrowding in the UK with my own eyes. I lived there and saw it - and it's worse than it was when I lived there. Also, as I said, I have friends and family living all over the UK and they see it too - and they also say it's getting worse.

Various studies have shown that overcrowding has a detrimental impact on various things such as health. It also promotes more aggressive behaviour and crime (everything from road rage to prison riots). There are other issues such as increased noise, litter, polution, etc.

So the issue is not population density per se - it's really the fact that the UK infrastructure (including public services and the environment) is creaking under the strain of its population density. Overcrowding is one of the most common reasons that expats give for leaving the UK. Many people on this forum have said exactly that.

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore but whatever it is, maybe you're the one who has lost touch with the reality of the situation in the UK.

dbd33

If you actually go back and read the thread, population density came up as part of a discussion about overcrowding.

So population density alone is not the issue - the real issue is actually overcrowding. I take it you can at least agree that population density is somewhat related to overcrowding?

The problem in southern Ontario (and particulatrly in the GTA where most immigrants settle) is that a certain amount of infrastructure needs to be in place to accommodate a certain population density. This infrastructure includes everything from employment opportunities, healthcare, roads, public transportation, housing, education, prisons, other public services, etc. When population densities reach a level beyond that which the infrastructure can support, you start to get overcrowding and related issues.

I don't actually need articles because I've seen overcrowding in the GTA with my own eyes. I lived there and saw it - and it's worse than it was when I lived there. Also, as I said, I have friends and family living all over the GTA and they see it too - and they also say it's getting worse.

Various studies have shown that overcrowding has a detrimental impact various things such as health. It also promotes more aggressive behaviour and crime (everything from road rage to prison riots).

So the issue is not population density per se - it's really the fact that the GTA infrastructure (including public services and the environment) is creaking under the strain of its population density. Overcrowding, and especially traffic density is one of the most common reasons that cradles give for leaving the GTA.

Population density, overcrowding, is a cipher in Canada for "too many of those people" as it is in the UK. The connection with right wing politics couldn't be more clear if you stuck a flag of St. George on it. Still, I can't see it's much of a factor in emigration decisions, people leaving the southeast to go to the GTA won't notice a difference, neither will people leaving the north to go to Nova Scotia; the former will trade one commuter hell for another, the latter one blasted heath for another. It would only be critical if you were selling up and moving to the country as part of the emigration. Half a dozen posters have done that but it's not typical.

MarylandNed

Absolutely. Overcrowding does not belong to the UK. For example, I have said many times that Toronto's transit system has not kept pace with the city's growth. An obvious example is the rail network in general and the subway system in particular. However, the problem of overcrowding is much WORSE overall in the UK - and it's not just confined to major urban centres.

To say talk of overcrowding is indicative of a "right wing" political view is just nonsense. Yes, the right wing will use issues such as overcrowding to bash immigration policies. That does not change the fact that there are issues related to overcrowding and that those issues need to be discussed and dealt with (by all political parties). It also does not change the fact that immigration is certainly a factor in increasing the population of the UK.

Steve_

Last time I checked which was a very long time ago the spread of infectious disease is faster in the UK than in the US, I can't be bothered to look it all up but I know in Canada I get colds much less frequently than in the UK. Anyway, that is generally considered to be a result of high population density.

Also, there are water shortages in the SE part of the UK routinely now. Some of that can be put down to climate change but the main culprit is overcrowding.

dbd33

I heard that AIDS spread around Brighton much more quickly than it did Omaha, that's why my eyesight hasn't yet failed me here.

Souvy

Well, Brighton was always a bit leading-edge. It was gay before gay was invented.

Alan2005

The main culprit is water companies saving money by closing down reservoirs shortly after privatization. There is no reason that anywhere in the UK should be short of water.

Editha

More googling Maryland? You'll go blind. An overcrowded train, prison or house, is not the same thing as an "overcrowded" country. Do try to stop going off on irrelevant tangents.

The last time I was in South-East England (I own a house near Brighton and spend at least 4 months a year there), there was no water rationing, enough food in the shops, and I didn't notice any public health warnings about plague either. When it gets like your Soylent Green fantasy I'll let you know.

Densely populated cities have lower environmental footprints per capita than more spread out ones, and it is possible to surround them with green belt land, giving people better access to the countryside, something many Canadian cities noticeably lack.

To suggest that a country like the UK, which enjoys one of the highest standards of living in the world is "overcrowded" is ridiculous, and yes it is simply right wing code for "we don't want any more immigrants". In the context of the UK it can't have any other meaning.

Nor is density the same thing as "overcrowding", which is why Maryland's raising of the issue was irrelevant. The Sudan is one of the least densely occupied countries in the world, but its agriculture and water supply are insufficient for the population, so it is arguably overcrowded.

Oink

I went to College Park, Maryland once, and once was enough thank you very much, what an ugly cesspool of a place.

christmasoompa

Stop with the sweeping generalisations and/or making statements that aren't true! I live in the South East, never had a hosepipe ban or 'routine' water shortage. Mind you, I've not noticed this alleged 'overcrowding' either.