flashman

To join with the US wold result in a lowering of our standards which are not exclusinely based on materialism and consumerism. I think Canada tends to have broader objectives regarding quality of life which are closer to Scandanavian countries.

blaggers

Yes I was in home outfitters yesterday buying a duvet and the girl helping me said
"did you know people in scandinavia & europe (obviously she didn't realise I was British) actually just throw the duvet on their beds, just like that!"

Not really related to the subject I know but it did make me chuckle.

As for my two penneth

No! Canada please do not join with the US. Espically after they tried to lay the blame for Sep 11. Keep the cross cultural individuality that makes this country a fun and exciting place to live in. Never rely on the gun toting yanks who are out to save us all by causing WW3.

Nuff said.

Rete

Curious as to why you would say or even think that. Quebec is but a very small part geographically and demographically of Canada as a whole. If they were to succeed from the country of Canada, it is my husband's hope (remember he is Canada, born in Montreal, tri-lingual fractured Canadian French, German and English) that a wall is built around the Provinces of Quebec, that all Canadian programs be stopped immediately, and that the country of Quebec is required to then set up their own treasury, healthcare system, academic systems, and capture on film the expression on their new government's collective faces when they learn that the US government and businessmen will not deal with them in any language other than English.

If Canada were to secede to the US at that time, Quebec will not be dealt with kindly in any way, shape or form, by the US government. We don't have the patience nor does Quebec have the ability to blackmail us as they do the present Canadian federal government.

Rete

Rete

Canada is cleaner, at least your capital city, then the US but as for safer and better healthcare? I beg to differ. Your healthcare system is in a shambles and your cancer patients and those requiring specialized testing are sent to the US as Canada either does not have the medical staff or equipment or facilities to treat cancer patients requiring radiation and for those requiring MRI's, they, too, are referred to the States for testing. But you can buy many US prescribed only drugs over the counter in Canada.

Have found the Canadian people no different on the scales of friendliness than the people of the US. Ignorance of world events does not know a nationality. And on what do you base your generalization of an entire country's population as being ignorant of world events? I am not proclaiming all Canadian bigotics because you are.

Your education is not cheaper if you consider the exorbitant tax you pay for inferior healthcare and standardized education. As for being liked, that is something I have found to be very Canadian. Your country and countrymen (my Canadian husband included) MUST be liked by all countries throughout the world and make the "best dressed" list of the UN annually or you sulk in a corner and point fingers at others for your failure to achieve the No. 1 spot.

Americans do not want Canada as a State just as Canada does not wish to annex itself to the US. We are two very different, individualistic countries and I sincerely hope we always remain this way.

Rete

willothewisp

I refer to the Human Development reports issued by the UN. Canada has come out on top more than ANY other country. We have scored higher than the US in 7 of the 9 major categories. (http://hdr.undp.org)
- Life expectancy at birth (years), 2000
- Adult literacy rate (% age 15 and above), 2000
- Combined primary, secondary and tertiary gross enrolment ratio (%), 1999
- Life expectancy index, 2000
- Education index, 2000
- Human development index (HDI) value, 2000
- Health expenditure, public (as % of GDP), 2000
- GDP per capita (PPP US$) rank minus HDI rank, 2000

The only ones that the US beat Canada on were:
- GDP
- People living with HIV/AIDS, adults (% age 15-49), 2001.
The number of children killed by gunshot wounds. (Between 1979 and 2000, nearly 90,000 children and teens were killed by gunfire; 61 percent were White and 36 percent were Black. http://www.childrensdefense.org
- The 6.3 million violent crimes (2 for every 100 people) committed in the US in 2001 (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov)

So I don't know where you were getting you results from, mine come from the UN, does yours come from that extremely un-biases gossip service CNN, or more likely the Simpsons?

So YES… CANADA is Safer, both health wise and just walking down the street and catching AIDS, it IS cleaner it is BETTER educated and it a better Place to live.

So next time you decide to make a statement, I suggest you do something very UN-american and educate your self first.

Canuck_Abroad

Once again, another American voices his/her opinion on the Canadian Healthcare System, obviously basing their view on news reports from the inward looking US News Agencies. The Canadian Healthcare System is not in shambles they way you think. Cancer patients and those seeking special test are not SENT to the United States. Those requiring MRIs are not SENT to the states. Canada has all those health facilities, equipment and staff. What makes them unavailable to all Canadians is the government created “Managed Care� system that creates waiting lists for these services. It is not that the services are unavailable – they are – but the government makes them hard to attain. Note that the US seems hell bent on following in the example of the Canadians – every election focuses on more and more government healthcare and nobody bothers to examine what is wrong with government healthcare (if you need a hint as to what is wrong with it, the problem is government – which never seems to run anything effectively). Canadians are not "referred" to the states by their doctors, Canadians with money escape the Canadian "Federal Managed Care" in order to gain EQUIVALENT healthcare in the US faster than they can in Canada. It has nothing to do with inferior facilities or lacking in staff. I have worked at some of your top medical facilities and Cancer Units, so I know this to be true.

Having lived in several of the US states (Northeast, Southeast, Midwest, Southwest), I find that the further you travel south from the Canadian border, the more ignorant the people become when it comes to world events and geography. Try calling the International Operator for AT&T when in the South and ask how for the city code and country code for Luxembourg. Not only will they have a problem with the city name being the same as the country name, they will never have heard of the country. And it will not help to tell them Luxembourg borders on Belgium and the Netherlands, because they have not heard of those places either. I know, I have gone through this scenario with the “AT&T International Operators�.

Canada does not have to cry when it does not make the UN Best Dressed List because that does not happen. Canada consistently makes the list and the US consistently overlooks the fact that they do not make the list. The News Media still goes on and on about the USA being the best in the world to live.

No, Canada does not want to become the 51st state, but if the US feels they have to expand, please have Quebec. Most Canadians (outside of Quebec) would love the US to take that spoilt child their our hands.

willothewisp

As an educated person you should make more educated statements.
There are child predators in all countries, Canada does not have an overtly large number of them, in fact just the opposite. Nor is there a high number of murders in Toronto,


"The total number of murders in CANADA in 2001 was 554, just eight more than in 2000, but 167 fewer than in 1975, ...."

"Since becoming Mayor in 1993, Giuliani has reduced the rate of murder in the city by 65%. In 1993 there were almost 2,000 murders in NYC. By the year 2000, the number of murders was reduced to 667. "

In 1 of your cities which is claiming to have less crime than before you had more murders tan in the entire country?

And no matter what you read in the tabloids, for papers will only print was is news worthy, Canada still has a better health system than MOST of the world, with only Sweden and Norway coming before it. There may be the EXCEPTION which the news papers get a hold of, but the rule is that you get treated. I have had many operations in Canada, and have also worked, as an IM consultant, in provincial health care systems in Ontario, Alberta and New Brunswick, so I do know my stats.

In fact in NB, in the year of 1997, 6.2 million dollars was lost because of US residents using NB healthcare. And NB is a small province. Imagine what the figures are like in Ontario? It is NOT Canadians having to go to the US is is Americans stealing Canadian health care, where you get health care without having to be RICH to get it.

Also, as person educated to the MBA level, you should know that the UN itself does not compile these statistics entirely by itself these organizations help:
- WHO (World Health Organization),
- UNICEF (United Nations Children’s Fund)
- WSSCC (Water Supply and Sanitation Collaborative Council)
- Oxford University Press.
- Department of Economic and Social Affairs, Population Division. New York
- Human Development Report Office by the World Bank

If any government needs improvement, it is the US one. No government should remain stagnant, and no government should put the needs of its people anywhere but first, in these respects the Canadian government does very well.

PS, I also have a BSc (from the top IT school in Canada) and an MBA from a major International University. and have lived and worked in both Canada and the US (4 different states) as well as 7 other countries. I think I have an adequate base for comparison.






-----Original Message-----
From: RETE
Sent: 08 November 2002 17:43
Subject: Educated on Canada


I am educated on Canada. And I am a well read American who holds an MBA from a major college and who happens to be married to a Canadian and who has many Canadian friends.

Because the UN has voted Canada number one in so many respects does not make it so. Ask a Canadian about the high number of child predators in their country. Or about the high murder rate in their major cities, such as Toronto. Or about the inability of hospitals and medical facilities in or near major cities to care for the multitude of patients that are left unattended for hours on end while they suffer in pain. Or the cancer patients who cannot obtain chemo or radiation because of the inadequacy of drugs and machines. Perhaps you ought to read some of the Canadian dailies for a view outside of what the almighty UN has to say about a country that is one of its most vocal supporter.

Canada is a beautiful country and its people are friendly. But to place it on a pedestal is to do it an injustice. For once on that platform, it is hard to make government officials recognize the need for improvement.

cykit

Hats off to Rette for hitting the nail on the head. I’m Canadian and have been living in the U.S. for the last two years. Based on all the posts I have read on this thread, I think Rette is the only one who has stated things in the most realistic and mature manner. And, of course, it doesn’t surprise me to see certain “knowledgeable� Canadians who arrogantly try to dispute her arguments.

Statements like:

So next time you decide to make a statement, I suggest you do something very UN-american and educate your self first

really do a disservice to those trying to prove their own points. I’m dumbfounded when I come across statements from people like this and I’m embarrassed as a Canadian that such ignorance is still prevalent.

Anyways, the first thing Canadians always point out is the UN survey and how “it always ranks above the U.S.� Fine, but if this was such a verifiable measure of how great a place is to live, then how come Switzerland and Finland, which arguably have as good if not a better a quality of life, aren’t even ranked within the top ten? You see, Canadians love statistics that prop themselves up as being better than Americans. This statement: Canada does not have to cry when it does not make the UN Best Dressed List because that does not happen. Canada consistently makes the list and the US consistently overlooks the fact that they do not make the list. is very telling. And you say Canadians don’t boast?

The second thing pointed out is crime. Canada has a lower murder rate, there’s no denying that. Having once worked in the law enforcement field, I think the murder rate has more to do with demographics than anything else (a big no-no in terms of discussions up north). If you look at other crime rates, such as burglary, rape, property crime, etc., you’d find that the rates are really quite similar and even higher in Canada in some instances. I, for one, have been victim of a crime several times when I was living in Canada. Not once have I been robbed since moving to the U.S., and I’ve been to some pretty bad neighborhoods. I’m not saying in any way that crime is non-existent in the U.S., just that I don’t feel any less safe living here (NYC) than I did living in Canada (Toronto and Edmonton).

More ignorant down here? My trip to Toronto last week-end disproved that theory in spades.

Healthcare system. Well, having being a health care economics consultant in Canada and having friends and relatives working in the industry up there, I can say with certain authority that the system up there is absolutely nothing to run home and boast about. It’s really telling when countries like China, South Korea, Singapore, South Africa and Hong Kong have more advanced healthcare technology than most Canadian hospitals. As for this:

And no matter what you read in the tabloids, for papers will only print was is news worthy, Canada still has a better health system than MOST of the world, with only Sweden and Norway coming before it. There may be the EXCEPTION which the news papers get a hold of, but the rule is that you get treated. I have had many operations in Canada, and have also worked, as an IM consultant, in provincial health care systems in Ontario, Alberta and New Brunswick, so I do know my stats.

For an IM consultant who “knows his stats�, you have absolutely zero idea of what you’re talking about. Did you know that the WHO does rankings of health care systems around the world? Canada and the U.S. weren’t even ranked within the top ten…or twenty for that matter...hell, I don’t even think they made the top 30! Hardly among the “best� in the world and absolutely NOTHING to boast about. I’m not in any way shape or form boasting about the U.S. healthcare system. It may be the most advanced in terms of technology and treatment, but it’s vastly inefficient. Still, nobody, especially a Canadian healthcare consultant (like you claim to be), would ever give props to the system up there.

By the way, Willow, if you worked in the field that you claimed to work in, then I’m sure that we worked together or at least know the same people in that field. You see, I did consulting in Alberta and Ontario myself and am pretty familiar with most of the experts over there (one of them happens to be my father and a few of them are my cousins and uncles). I’d like to know who you are. You can e-mail me if you want ([email protected]). Since this is a public internet forum, I don’t like giving out my name and I’m assuming you feel the same. And out of respect for my former colleagues, I wouldn’t give their names out in a public forum either.

"The total number of murders in CANADA in 2001 was 554, just eight more than in 2000, but 167 fewer than in 1975, ...."

"Since becoming Mayor in 1993, Giuliani has reduced the rate of murder in the city by 65%. In 1993 there were almost 2,000 murders in NYC. By the year 2000, the number of murders was reduced to 667. "

Where did you get this from? Bowling for Columbine? Sounds like something Michael Moore said in a recent interview.

ANYWAYS, back to the topic. I’m going to give a brief response. No, I don’t think the U.S. or Canada will merge anytime soon. I think it would have been a lot easier for them to do it 10-15 years ago when their governments were more similar. While I think the lifestyle of both countries is essentially the same, the government elements are quite different right now. Eventually, however, I feel that both countries will have to look into an EU-like scenario as the EU irons out its problems with unification. The EU will obviously become more competitive. It would be in North America’s best interests to do so to make things more seamless. And truthfully, I see Canada benefiting more from this than the U.S.

P.S. Willow: I personally think you’re full of shit. Out of all the colleagues I worked with, not ONE had an attitude as starkly arrogant and aloof as yours. I don’t think you were in the profession you claimed to be, and certainly I doubt that you’re anyone I have ever worked with. Do you even know what IHE is?

willothewisp

Well, I see that working for in the US has degraded your use and knowledge of the English language to a level that is consistent with their behaviour...

As for being full of S%$t I am afraid that is you, not I that hold that qualification.

If you had actually learned to read, you would have noticed that I did quote my source of information as WHO? Maybe you were just a toilet cleaner in the Law enforcement field? As for the statistics put out by WHO Canada was 3rd. Your error must be a result of your inability to read, or maybe you are just talking with the aid of your sphincter.

As for whom I worked for in the Health Care industry, I am sure that your relatives, if they were relatives of yours, would have not held anywhere near the seniority needed to have had any dealings with me, I generally dealt with the director levels of all three institutions, not the janitors. If you whish to know who I am I suggest you contact one of the directors at BC in either Edmonton or Moncton, or at TGH.

As for the other statistics that you refer to; the US one was from none other than the FBI (they actually consider this statistic a good one), the Canadian statistic comes from about 12 different sources, all quoting the same number 554. Again, we see VERY uneducated statement being uttered by a non-Canadian. For I do not believe that a person as vulgar and ignorant as you, could possibly be anything but an American.

In the future, suggest that you do some research before you make any more drivel statements, such as I have just read, and keep your vulgarity in the US where it belongs. I think a lesson in English, above the grade 3 level, would be a great help to you too.

PS if you want to e-mail me, you should learn what the little symbols beside the timestamp of this message mean... Or maybe that would be more information than you tiny little brain could hold.

dm543

I found some interesting statistics from the year 2001:

In Canada 1 out of every 55,600 people were murdered in that year.

In the USA 1 out of every 20,400 people were murdered in that year.

I found this from the Statistics Canada website and the FBI website.

So, if you live in the US, you are 2.72 times more likely to be murdered than if you live in Canada.

ms1234567

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

MS

Rob S

do you which year these stats relate to?

Rob S

I've never been to Canada and don't profess any detailed knowledge of its health care system. However in the course of some recent research I came accross this - for those with insomnia part 4 makes interesting reading (in terms of Statistics) and yes Canada comes ahead of the US.. but is closer than either side here might expect.

enjoy.
http://www.davidgratzer.com/index.php

and yes I do need to get out more

willothewisp

You are correct...

I was basing my remark on this result.

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2...02_table_6.pdf

ms1234567

The URL you sent does not give any clear indication of Canada's rank in the health system. The table is ordered according to the ranking in the Human Development Index (where Canada ranks 3rd), but unfortunately, when it comes to the health care, Canada only ranked 30th... But yeah, ahead of the US ;-).

Regards

MS