Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > Canada
Reload this Page >

Unlimited Fees for University

Unlimited Fees for University

Old Oct 14th 2010, 2:46 pm
  #76  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Maryland (via Belfast, Manchester, Toronto and London)
Posts: 4,802
MarylandNed has a reputation beyond reputeMarylandNed has a reputation beyond reputeMarylandNed has a reputation beyond reputeMarylandNed has a reputation beyond reputeMarylandNed has a reputation beyond reputeMarylandNed has a reputation beyond reputeMarylandNed has a reputation beyond reputeMarylandNed has a reputation beyond reputeMarylandNed has a reputation beyond reputeMarylandNed has a reputation beyond reputeMarylandNed has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by dbd33
Not if there are no fees.
What I meant was that there will always be financially irresponsible parents - unfortunately for their children who want to attend uni. In addition, many parents are financially responsible but just don't have disposable income after the basics are taken care of.

Even with zero tuition fees, there is still an overall cost of attendance (COA). In Canada, tuition fees for undergrads are typically not the largest part of the COA. In the US, they often are. Other costs in the overall COA are food, accommodation, books, entertainment, etc. It costs money to live.

I went to uni in England on a full grant (which was actually supposed to cover the total COA) many years ago and I still left with some debt. I was determined not to be a financial burden on my parents (who had 4 other kids to worry about). They weren't financially irresponsible - they were just poor.
MarylandNed is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 2:55 pm
  #77  
Born again atheist
 
Novocastrian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Novocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by MarylandNed
What I meant was that there will always be financially irresponsible parents - unfortunately for their children who want to attend uni. In addition, many parents are financially responsible but just don't have disposable income after the basics are taken care of.

Even with zero tuition fees, there is still an overall cost of attendance (COA). In Canada, tuition fees for undergrads are typically not the largest part of the COA. In the US, they often are. Other costs in the overall COA are food, accommodation, books, entertainment, etc. It costs money to live.

I went to uni in England on a full grant (which was actually supposed to cover the total COA) many years ago and I still left with some debt. I was determined not to be a financial burden on my parents (who had 4 other kids to worry about). They weren't financially irresponsible - they were just poor.
I also had a full grant (although means tested based on parental income). I also left with some debt, but even I don't expect the grant to cover one's binge drinking expenses.
Novocastrian is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 3:00 pm
  #78  
Born again atheist
 
Novocastrian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Novocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by Alan2005
So you think transferring wealth from those on lower incomes to those who are well off is ok then?
You mean sequestering an entry level person's pay and transferring it to bankers?
Novocastrian is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 3:12 pm
  #79  
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Alan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by Novocastrian
You mean sequestering an entry level person's pay and transferring it to bankers?
No, though that is immoral.

I mean taking money off poor people and educating middle class kids with it.
Alan2005 is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 3:24 pm
  #80  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by Alan2005
So you think transferring wealth from those on lower incomes to those who are well off is ok then?
That is, of course, the way of the world but it's not clear to me how asking the poor to fund their education advances that aim. If I'm poor and pay some amount to get educated I'm worse off than if I don't have to pay. The well off are still well off, it matters to them only to the extent that pricing the poor out of schooling reduces academic competition.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 3:33 pm
  #81  
Born again atheist
 
Novocastrian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Novocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by Alan2005
No, though that is immoral.

I mean taking money off poor people and educating middle class kids with it.
Poor people pay very little or no tax. Because they're poor.

Why should their children be condemned to the same future?
Novocastrian is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 3:36 pm
  #82  
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Alan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by dbd33
That is, of course, the way of the world but it's not clear to me how asking the poor to fund their education advances that aim. If I'm poor and pay some amount to get educated I'm worse off than if I don't have to pay. The well off are still well off, it matters to them only to the extent that pricing the poor out of schooling reduces academic competition.
Who's asking the poor to fund their education? A fair means tested system would be one that expects those that can afford it to pay, and those that cannot to get grants. As soon as you give grants to everyone, they go disproportionately to people that don't need them.
Alan2005 is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 3:41 pm
  #83  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by Alan2005
Who's asking the poor to fund their education? .
Those in support of fees.

Originally Posted by Alan2005
A fair means tested system would be one that expects those that can afford it to pay, and those that cannot to get grants. As soon as you give grants to everyone, they go disproportionately to people that don't need them.
"A fair means tested system" is as likely as a fair tax system. Means tested grants will go to those who best structure their affairs, those already affluent, just as tax breaks intended for the poor go to those with the best accountants. The theoretical disproportionate benefit to the well off of education without tuition fees is of less concern to me than the provision of access to the poor. I don't believe that more bureaucracy benefits the poor.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 3:57 pm
  #84  
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,139
ireland2canada is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by Alan2005
Who's asking the poor to fund their education? A fair means tested system would be one that expects those that can afford it to pay, and those that cannot to get grants. As soon as you give grants to everyone, they go disproportionately to people that don't need them.
But that is the way it is already, at least, it was back in the late 90s/early 2000s when I was a student. I realise things have moved on but the principle of means testing remains the same.

I got a means tested loan, based on my family income. This was calculated based on a lone parent who was working at the time making a livable but scraping by kind of wage. The end amount was just enough to cover tuition fees, nowt else. If that was all I could get, I hate to think what someone from a middle class family with two parents would get.

My point is that, even with the means tested loan, the money available is only enough to get you there. It did not cover books and materials, a computer, food or rent. I am not suggesting that anyone else should have to pay for these things, just that they are additional costs on top of the cost of the course itself. What these new reports are suggesting is that universities are going to be allowed to charge their own fees, up to a maximum of 7000GBP or thereabouts. The fact that this new maximum is roughly double the current rate is what is most concerning to me.
ireland2canada is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 3:59 pm
  #85  
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Alan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by dbd33
Those in support of fees.



"A fair means tested system" is as likely as a fair tax system. Means tested grants will go to those who best structure their affairs, those already affluent, just as tax breaks intended for the poor go to those with the best accountants. The theoretical disproportionate benefit to the well off of education without tuition fees is of less concern to me than the provision of access to the poor. I don't believe that more bureaucracy benefits the poor.
These are poor arguments. Means testing is not complicated and has been done already.

The facts are this. If you have free education then you have to limit places, once you limit places then you then have to apply a selection criteria, once you have that you are biasing significantly (and it's not just some theoretical effect which you imply) against people from families on low incomes.
Alan2005 is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 4:09 pm
  #86  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by Alan2005
These are poor arguments.
Then feel free to demolish them by weight of reason or display of accumulated evidence.

Originally Posted by Alan2005
Means testing is not complicated and has been done already.
I'm familiar with it. Qualification for government funds to assist with education was a consideration for my accountant.

Originally Posted by Alan2005
The facts are this. If you have free education then you have to limit places, once you limit places then you then have to apply a selection criteria, once you have that you are biasing significantly (and it's not just some theoretical effect which you imply) against people from families on low incomes.
1. Inevitably places must be limited, the argument is about how best to do so.

2. The selection criterion in a fee based system is money, the criterion in a "free" system is academic prowess, either discriminates against the poor, the latter less overtly and so it's the approach I favour.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 4:30 pm
  #87  
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,139
ireland2canada is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by dbd33
2. The selection criterion in a fee based system is money, the criterion in a "free" system is academic prowess, either discriminates against the poor, the latter less overtly and so it's the approach I favour.
*cough* Due to a past life working in university admissions I know this not to be the case. Or, I should say, not the whole case.

The free system may have been all about academic achievement, but it is alive and well in the fee based system. Even more so, in fact, given the drive and expectation that all high school kids will go on to university. In my experience, the numbers of applicants vastly outweighed the number of places available. We increased the grades required to 3 As at A-level. This helped somewhat but not nearly enough. We then introduced an entrance examination to weed through the applicants....in addition to asking for top grades at A level. Great swathes of people sit this exam yet only the upper crust of achievers will be offered a place. This, btw, was for health professional degrees.
ireland2canada is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 4:42 pm
  #88  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,014
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by ireland2canada
The free system may have been all about academic achievement, but it is alive and well in the fee based system.
I don't dispute that and accept that I was oversimplifying. I think though that what you're describing is the worst of both worlds; the rich kids win because they can be coached for the admission exam and they win again as they're better able to pay for the course once admitted. I don't see fees as helping in any way.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 4:53 pm
  #89  
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Alan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond reputeAlan2005 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by dbd33
I'm familiar with it. Qualification for government funds to assist with education was a consideration for my accountant.
Extrapolating your own circumstances again?

Originally Posted by dbd33
1. Inevitably places must be limited, the argument is about how best to do so.
The problem is that your limit is by necessity a lot smaller.
Alan2005 is offline  
Old Oct 14th 2010, 4:58 pm
  #90  
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,139
ireland2canada is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Unlimited Fees for University

Originally Posted by dbd33
I don't dispute that and accept that I was oversimplifying. I think though that what you're describing is the worst of both worlds; the rich kids win because they can be coached for the admission exam and they win again as they're better able to pay for the course once admitted. I don't see fees as helping in any way.
I dunno about that. I can't speak for all of course, but in the scenario of which I speak, there is no coaching available. The test is randomly computer generated, each test package contains different questions, all weighted to carry the same score. It is impossible to actually study for, which is the whole point. We already know the academic achievements of the students compared with their peers. All you can do is prepare yourself for the format in which the test will take place. This information is readily available to all via the web, for free.

I'm not saying that this is a perfect system, not by a long shot. But this is what universities are faced with, you have to choose the students somehow and the most rational arguement is to choose based on academic merit. To propose doubling the tuition fees will reduce the inflated demand for places, but for entirely the wrong reasons.
ireland2canada is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.