Unlimited Fees for University
#76
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Maryland (via Belfast, Manchester, Toronto and London)
Posts: 4,802
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
What I meant was that there will always be financially irresponsible parents - unfortunately for their children who want to attend uni. In addition, many parents are financially responsible but just don't have disposable income after the basics are taken care of.
Even with zero tuition fees, there is still an overall cost of attendance (COA). In Canada, tuition fees for undergrads are typically not the largest part of the COA. In the US, they often are. Other costs in the overall COA are food, accommodation, books, entertainment, etc. It costs money to live.
I went to uni in England on a full grant (which was actually supposed to cover the total COA) many years ago and I still left with some debt. I was determined not to be a financial burden on my parents (who had 4 other kids to worry about). They weren't financially irresponsible - they were just poor.
Even with zero tuition fees, there is still an overall cost of attendance (COA). In Canada, tuition fees for undergrads are typically not the largest part of the COA. In the US, they often are. Other costs in the overall COA are food, accommodation, books, entertainment, etc. It costs money to live.
I went to uni in England on a full grant (which was actually supposed to cover the total COA) many years ago and I still left with some debt. I was determined not to be a financial burden on my parents (who had 4 other kids to worry about). They weren't financially irresponsible - they were just poor.
#77
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
What I meant was that there will always be financially irresponsible parents - unfortunately for their children who want to attend uni. In addition, many parents are financially responsible but just don't have disposable income after the basics are taken care of.
Even with zero tuition fees, there is still an overall cost of attendance (COA). In Canada, tuition fees for undergrads are typically not the largest part of the COA. In the US, they often are. Other costs in the overall COA are food, accommodation, books, entertainment, etc. It costs money to live.
I went to uni in England on a full grant (which was actually supposed to cover the total COA) many years ago and I still left with some debt. I was determined not to be a financial burden on my parents (who had 4 other kids to worry about). They weren't financially irresponsible - they were just poor.
Even with zero tuition fees, there is still an overall cost of attendance (COA). In Canada, tuition fees for undergrads are typically not the largest part of the COA. In the US, they often are. Other costs in the overall COA are food, accommodation, books, entertainment, etc. It costs money to live.
I went to uni in England on a full grant (which was actually supposed to cover the total COA) many years ago and I still left with some debt. I was determined not to be a financial burden on my parents (who had 4 other kids to worry about). They weren't financially irresponsible - they were just poor.
#80
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
That is, of course, the way of the world but it's not clear to me how asking the poor to fund their education advances that aim. If I'm poor and pay some amount to get educated I'm worse off than if I don't have to pay. The well off are still well off, it matters to them only to the extent that pricing the poor out of schooling reduces academic competition.
#82
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
That is, of course, the way of the world but it's not clear to me how asking the poor to fund their education advances that aim. If I'm poor and pay some amount to get educated I'm worse off than if I don't have to pay. The well off are still well off, it matters to them only to the extent that pricing the poor out of schooling reduces academic competition.
#83
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
Those in support of fees.
"A fair means tested system" is as likely as a fair tax system. Means tested grants will go to those who best structure their affairs, those already affluent, just as tax breaks intended for the poor go to those with the best accountants. The theoretical disproportionate benefit to the well off of education without tuition fees is of less concern to me than the provision of access to the poor. I don't believe that more bureaucracy benefits the poor.
"A fair means tested system" is as likely as a fair tax system. Means tested grants will go to those who best structure their affairs, those already affluent, just as tax breaks intended for the poor go to those with the best accountants. The theoretical disproportionate benefit to the well off of education without tuition fees is of less concern to me than the provision of access to the poor. I don't believe that more bureaucracy benefits the poor.
#84
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,139
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
I got a means tested loan, based on my family income. This was calculated based on a lone parent who was working at the time making a livable but scraping by kind of wage. The end amount was just enough to cover tuition fees, nowt else. If that was all I could get, I hate to think what someone from a middle class family with two parents would get.
My point is that, even with the means tested loan, the money available is only enough to get you there. It did not cover books and materials, a computer, food or rent. I am not suggesting that anyone else should have to pay for these things, just that they are additional costs on top of the cost of the course itself. What these new reports are suggesting is that universities are going to be allowed to charge their own fees, up to a maximum of 7000GBP or thereabouts. The fact that this new maximum is roughly double the current rate is what is most concerning to me.
#85
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
Those in support of fees.
"A fair means tested system" is as likely as a fair tax system. Means tested grants will go to those who best structure their affairs, those already affluent, just as tax breaks intended for the poor go to those with the best accountants. The theoretical disproportionate benefit to the well off of education without tuition fees is of less concern to me than the provision of access to the poor. I don't believe that more bureaucracy benefits the poor.
"A fair means tested system" is as likely as a fair tax system. Means tested grants will go to those who best structure their affairs, those already affluent, just as tax breaks intended for the poor go to those with the best accountants. The theoretical disproportionate benefit to the well off of education without tuition fees is of less concern to me than the provision of access to the poor. I don't believe that more bureaucracy benefits the poor.
The facts are this. If you have free education then you have to limit places, once you limit places then you then have to apply a selection criteria, once you have that you are biasing significantly (and it's not just some theoretical effect which you imply) against people from families on low incomes.
#86
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
Then feel free to demolish them by weight of reason or display of accumulated evidence.
I'm familiar with it. Qualification for government funds to assist with education was a consideration for my accountant.
1. Inevitably places must be limited, the argument is about how best to do so.
2. The selection criterion in a fee based system is money, the criterion in a "free" system is academic prowess, either discriminates against the poor, the latter less overtly and so it's the approach I favour.
I'm familiar with it. Qualification for government funds to assist with education was a consideration for my accountant.
The facts are this. If you have free education then you have to limit places, once you limit places then you then have to apply a selection criteria, once you have that you are biasing significantly (and it's not just some theoretical effect which you imply) against people from families on low incomes.
2. The selection criterion in a fee based system is money, the criterion in a "free" system is academic prowess, either discriminates against the poor, the latter less overtly and so it's the approach I favour.
#87
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,139
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
The free system may have been all about academic achievement, but it is alive and well in the fee based system. Even more so, in fact, given the drive and expectation that all high school kids will go on to university. In my experience, the numbers of applicants vastly outweighed the number of places available. We increased the grades required to 3 As at A-level. This helped somewhat but not nearly enough. We then introduced an entrance examination to weed through the applicants....in addition to asking for top grades at A level. Great swathes of people sit this exam yet only the upper crust of achievers will be offered a place. This, btw, was for health professional degrees.
#88
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
I don't dispute that and accept that I was oversimplifying. I think though that what you're describing is the worst of both worlds; the rich kids win because they can be coached for the admission exam and they win again as they're better able to pay for the course once admitted. I don't see fees as helping in any way.
#89
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
The problem is that your limit is by necessity a lot smaller.
#90
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,139
Re: Unlimited Fees for University
I don't dispute that and accept that I was oversimplifying. I think though that what you're describing is the worst of both worlds; the rich kids win because they can be coached for the admission exam and they win again as they're better able to pay for the course once admitted. I don't see fees as helping in any way.
I'm not saying that this is a perfect system, not by a long shot. But this is what universities are faced with, you have to choose the students somehow and the most rational arguement is to choose based on academic merit. To propose doubling the tuition fees will reduce the inflated demand for places, but for entirely the wrong reasons.