jimf

I recall there was a bit of a fuss because students from other EU countries are treated the same as in Scotland ie pay nothing but students from elsewhere in the UK paid much more.

It is a small system but would still be interesting to know if the pattern of attending university had changed in a different way since the tuition fees had been implimented.

jimf

That looks interesting. Just a quick glance and it seems no tuition fees in Sweden, Finland and Germany. Deemed unconstitutional in Germany.

4Shores

[QUOTE=Alan2005;8920641]The school comparison is wrong because school places are not rationed.

The governments (both UK and I expect Canada) guarantee a school (primary and indeed secondary) place - but they are rationed in that various levels of funding are applied based on criteria that is not often openly published (oh and often a good school has a lot to do with the effort that parents chip in ... both rich and poor (and the large bit in between) )

The "choice" of which school your child might apply for, that was offered under labour (and perhaps it was already in place under good old Maggie) changed the face of pre-HE. Now it is a post code lottery - and I expect that you might feel annoyed that some people that can afford to buy houses in areas where there are good schools drove the house prices up? But what would you do if
a) you had kids (I don't know if you do but your posts suggest not)
and if (a)
b) enough (note not rich) money such that you might channel that into your home and as a by product your child's education or
c) just take pot luck?

Somebody suggested in an earlier post - it's about contributing to a society and, like it or not that does include those annoying middle class (middle earners that pay the bulk into the public purse and take the leasy out - go on .... check out the numbers ...). So surely, education for all and tax on subsequent income, is the way forward (i.e gov paid for your fees for a ba/bsc, and an ma/msc and a PhD and thus your tax code is x). Those that succeed will pay it back and those that don't - ah well - c'est la vie - they are but a small few or are they?

4Shores

Novocastrian

Or France.

Look at figure 1a. The % of people having had HE in Scotland and in the UK is essentially the same.

Oink

It's difficult to compare systems, as you have to take into account varying degrees and history of social and cultural stratification.

Novocastrian

I believe I'm capable of that.

What's your point?

Oink

Of course I'm not happy. I'd much prefer an ideal system, where, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need." 'Free' university education for all. And, while we're romanticizing the past, how about images of the faculty eating lashings of hot buttered toast around a coal fire, while discussing what vintage claret to have for dinner? Sadly it ain't the reality anymore.

jimf

It seems like some countries can make "free" HE work while others choose not to.

Oink

You seem to be suggesting that the UK can simply adopt a German or French model, but their cultural, social, economic and political situation is different. There is no one-best-system.

Oink

We had that system for about 60 years and it didn't really shine.

London Mike

Ultimately, 'the math' must be done and higher education for all, for free, just doesn't stack up. Not if you also want well subsidised, leading universities. Responsible govts should give back to universities the amount that they save through universities charging a nominal amount p/a to students for tuition. Philosophical arguments are one thing, but basic economics should govern policy here.

The top 3 academic markets in the social, behavioural and management sciences are US, Britain and Canada in that order. Whatever people say about Sweden, Finland and Germany - their institutions just don't register on the same scale. If you want high class higher/further education it's got to be subsidised. These places cost vast amounts of money to run, much more than high schools (fMRI machines etc).

This is an era of the knowledge economy. Anyone in any doubt about that should check out what China is currently doing -- building multi-million dollar new facilities and investing in HE (check out the new Beijing University library online - amazing). The UK's practically broke, so's the US, Canada has a high percentage of debt compared with GDP too. Let's get real people.

jimf

And unlimited tuition fees is going to improve the situation?

Novocastrian

Why doesn't it "stack up" whatever that means. What is a well subsidized leading university? The sentence starting with Responsible government doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure what an academic market is and I can't understand why you mention management sciences, WTF is that? Last time I looked Germany Sweden and Finland were just fine.


Now, aside from the obvious, why could that be?

Alan2005

For various shitty reasons that make me resent very penny/cent of tax I pay. Don't matter though does it - the money is gone and needs to be repaid.

Novocastrian

I think that's the obvious bit. What I meant to suggest is that lack of investment in publicly funded higher education is a contributing factor.

On the other hand, this thread is ripe for drifting, so feel free...