Originally Posted by jimf

encourage then?

Originally Posted by Oink

In an ideal world I'd agree with your assessment. But the reality, especially in the UK, is much murkier. While education itself has an intrinsic and societal value, its also has a monetary market value. The degree certificate acts as currency in the labour market, the more restricted the supply the higher price. Unfortunately, there is no mechanism that takes into account all the variables that make up a fair system, where "academic endeavour can flourish to the benefit of those who are equipped to take advantage of it and take nourishment from it" that doesn't involve subsidy. I advocate that any subsidy should benefit lower income families rather than higher earning families.

I'm not suggesting the wholesale marketization of HE, that as you may well have witnessed, can produce some rather perverted results. Academic freedom must be maintained, adjunct should not be replacing tenured faculty and I would even go so far to say that the notion of students as customers has detrimental effects on the quality of education received. As I said earlier, that without dictatorial powers we simply trying to create a fairer system, one where all students who have demonstrated the ability and desire to attend HE, can do so.

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

Leaving aside the quaint corporate newspeak, the core of your misunderstanding of my position is in the bolded bit. Higher Education (in one form or another) for all. University for those with a demonstrated academic bent. All paid by taxes.

Originally Posted by Oink

What you're not getting, faux or not, Is that as a society we can't/won't pay for everyone who has the ability and want, to attend HE. We suggesting that those who can afford to pay towards their education do so, while those who can't receive a subsidy.

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

Sorry but you're still not listening. I make a distinction between HE in general and universities. And who says "we" can't afford to pay for it? "Won't pay for it" may be closer, but surely that's just another deplorable example of short-termism.

Originally Posted by Oink

Wasn't it Keynes who said, "The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead."

Higher Ed or university ed, elitist labels notwithstanding, its all post-secondary or tertiary ed. Anyway, the tuition fee genie is well out of the bottle in the UK and it's not going back any time soon I suspect.

Originally Posted by Oink

Wasn't it Keynes who said, "The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead."

Higher Ed or university ed, elitist labels notwithstanding, its all post-secondary or tertiary ed. Anyway, the tuition fee genie is well out of the bottle in the UK and it's not going back any time soon I suspect.

Originally Posted by jimf

The system isn't the same across all of the UK is it? I thought Scottish students didn't pay tuition fees if they went to a Scottish university? Is there any information on whether university take up is different there because of the fee structure?

Originally Posted by jimf

The system isn't the same across all of the UK is it? I thought Scottish students didn't pay tuition fees if they went to a Scottish university? Is there any information on whether university take up is different there because of the fee structure?

Originally Posted by Sally Redux

I believe that's correct, and there is some extra subsidy for Wales as well.

Originally Posted by Alan2005

Which is fair. There aren't any posh welsh people.

Originally Posted by jimf

The system isn't the same across all of the UK is it? I thought Scottish students didn't pay tuition fees if they went to a Scottish university? Is there any information on whether university take up is different there because of the fee structure?

Originally Posted by Alan2005

Which is fair. There aren't any posh welsh people.

Originally Posted by jimf

The system isn't the same across all of the UK is it? I thought Scottish students didn't pay tuition fees if they went to a Scottish university? Is there any information on whether university take up is different there because of the fee structure?

Originally Posted by Oink

They put the genie back into the bottle, but their system is very small, has had a more egalitarian tradition than England, and even so had to have London bail them out a bit. Plus, English students who attend Scottish institutions still have to pay.