Judy in Calgary

I believe you are correct, Rich_007. According to Michael Adams, founder of Environics Research Group and author of Fire and Ice: The United States, Canada and the Myth of Converging Values, the most conservative province of Canada (Alberta) is more liberal than the most liberal state of the USA (Massachusetts).

Steve_P

Thank you Judy for clearly stating what I was having difficulty expressing.

dbd33

That seems improbable, Massachusetts is quite liberal, for example, they have gay marriage. I'll look for the book tomorrow but would guess it was published some time ago.

dbd33

"Ralph" is the premiere and has been for a long, long, time. If he does not reflect the opinions of the public why is it that he's repeatedly reelected ?

Steve_P

Are you implying Alberta doesn't?

Alberta didn't to my knowledge use the Not-withstanding clause in this regard.

Gay marriage is as legal in Alberta as it is anywhere else in Canada

dbd33

The book is summarised here :

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/St...x?StoryId=3501

It makes some very dubious claims :

"The Old World ideal of noblesse oblige has survived here even into this century, shaping our social assistance and public housing programs. In contrast, in the United States, the primary public expenditure has been mass education in the service of individual achievement."

Surely the big expenditures in the US are the military, prisons and medicare not education.

"Canadians have distanced themselves from traditional authority — organized religion, the patriarchal family and political elites."

Not so. We still have religion in schools and well attended places of worship.

I stopped reading at this point and started looking for empirical evidence, why does he think MA is the most liberal state ? What about California ? What measure does he use to determine that there's liberalism in Alberta ? Why does he think Alberta is more conservative than Quebec ? None is offered, it's an opinion piece, not a reasoned argument.

dbd33

If I recall correctly, the feds thrust it upon an unwilling Ralph, it's legal but not because Alberta wanted it. It seems not to be customary :

"Currently, same-sex marriages performed in seven provinces and one territory are legal and must be recognized. Same-sex marriages are not performed in Alberta, New Brunswick, P.E.I., Nunavut and the Northwest Territories, but the Nunavut government will recognize same-sex marriages performed elsewhere."

CBC, June 2005,

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...dding0614.html

Rich_007

Thanks Judy, interesting stuff that convergence theory.

I still regale my experience of sitting in Hy's, people-watching a pair of rather substantial Texans with their 12" ceegars discussing their take on life and the world....and their obnoxious berating of the [clearly gay] waiter due to his inability to serve up from what was a perfectly stocked wine celler a particular Portuguese red. The said chap was perfectly helpful to us during the excellent dining experience, and as it was our last night in Canada he got a hearty thanks and an oversized tip. Perhaps it made up for the attitude of the Texan assholes, who knows. It's a karma thing.

Quite what this has to do with the theme of the thread I have no idea and I apologise for dribbling somewhat .....the Hy's experience gave me an impression of Calgary, possibly skewed a little bit, but unpalatable all the same.

Rich.

dbd33

Anyway, in terms of choosing a location, immigrants would do well to use their ideas about the US, not Canada, in evaluating AB.

Steve_P

Once again the uninformed opinion of someone who does not live here.

Rich_007

Political elites, cabals of financial and other control, leverage of influence are all legendary coast to coast, from Toronto boardrooms to town hall meetings.

The wheels are very well oiled. shall we say ?

Reviews and summations from pro-globalist pro-free trade sources couldn't deliver objective insight anyway.

Rich.

Judy in Calgary

Alberta now allows same-sex marriage as long as no marriage commissioner who opposes same-sex marriage is forced to officiate at the wedding of a same-sex couple. The minister and lay chaplains at my church perform same-sex marriage ceremonies, and I myself was invited to the marriage of a gay couple in Calgary this past summer.

But I think we're quibbling about details. One of the larger points you've made, which is accurate in my opinion, is that Alberta -- overall -- is the most conservative province in Canada.

I often feel frustrated with Alberta's conservatism. When that happens, however, I'm judging Alberta in the Canadian context. That is, I find Alberta to have a meaner attitude than the rest of Canada. I feel disappointed that Alberta has a less generous outlook than other Canadian provinces do (at least according to my perception).

This is where I part company with you:

Rich_007 gave a response with which I agree:

We could argue till we're blue in the face whether or not Massachusetts, California, Colorado, etc., are more liberal than Alberta. I do not believe they are, especially not Colorado which voted for Bush in 2004 (albeit it voted Democratic on the rest of the ballot). However, even suppose those states were more liberal than Alberta. That still wouldn't draw me away from Alberta towards one of them.

As Rich_007 indicated, the experience of living in Alberta is nested within the experience of living in Canada. Regardless of how right wing my fellow Albertans are, the federal government contains their behaviour. So there are limits to the extent to which their right wing attitudes can affect me.

If a prospective migrant chooses even the most liberal of the American states, he/she still must accept the larger package deal (the USA's foreign policy, an average national incarceration rate of 702 per 100,000 of population compared with Canada's 116 per 100,000, and on and on).

Alberta, with its limitations, still is more attractive to me than any American state.

dbd33

Fair enough. I got well slapped at supper last night for forgetting that Hawaii is, far and away, more liberal than Massachusetts. Even that bastion of freedom has Dog: the bounty hunter.

dbd33

Of course I don't live there, I'm arguing that it's beyond the black stump, a desolate frozen wasteland in which politics is dominated by redneck religious fanatics. Politically and climatically an inhospitable place. Presumably you would be similarly disinclined to live here, perhaps because it has too many pinkos and is too damned hot.

CalgaryBlade

Hence your argument isn't based on your experience and is unsubstantiated.

"pinkos" etc weren't a big factor for us in deciding where to live. Climate was though and having spent time in Toronto in summer and winter, I'll take the weird weather of Calgary.