State of Engineering in Canada
 

I've been looking at emigrating to Canada for awhile but have had things in the UK I need to do before I commit to a move.

With the down turn in the oil and gas sector and mining, can anyone tell me what the state of engineering is in Canada now? I'm a chartered mechanical engineer, my experience is in the nuclear sector but mainly machinery design and so my skills are quite transferable. I'm just not sure if mechanical engineers are even in demand anymore?

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

a few comments to your post...

That each year Canadian universities pump out Mechanical engineering graduates who need to find work. That there are skilled, seasoned qualified home grown unemployed engineers who compete for jobs. Against that, what chance does a foreign engineer have?

That a foreign qualified engineer still needs to be licensed to practice engineering in Canada and to call themselves an 'engineer' .

That there are a few Brit engineers on this forum who have had issues with getting jobs as well as getting that Professional Engineer (P.Eng) designation

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

So in summary there is no demand.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Limited demand in limited areas of expertise. Some UK engineers have found work and others find it hard. In some areas it might be a fly in fly out camp setting and those with families might find it hard to adjust or cannot stand living in a camp setting i.e. shared trailer literally in the middle of nowhere.
Some might find the salaries not as good or other benefits etc etc.
Are all engineers equal? Is a UK degree in engineering better than a Brazilian one?

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

As far as degrees go some can be purchased/ fabricated. I've no idea whether that applies to Brazil or not.

CEng carries no weight in Ontario but BC and Alberta do seem to recognise the Washington Accord (the international mobility agreement for engineers).

A friend of mine in the nuclear field was made redundant two years back and is now thriving in the middle east.

The IMechE has a good group in Ontario, I'd STRONGLY recommend reaching out through the institute to them to get some "on-ground" advice. (I do them same for members of my institute).

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

continue on to what was covered in the above...

At one time way back when (before any Washington accord) at the time that I came to Canada, I would have figured the UK trained & educated engineers had an edge , especially in comparison to other foreign engineers. I figured English speaking, familiar levels, terminology & the fact that there were other Brits here - it wasn't so, as I found out to my surprise:eek:

Today its worse, worse in the sense as Pizzawheel eluded to is that being a Brit Engineer doesn't get you much through the door as would it if you were German, French, Australian or wherever. Its my opinion that when a degreed, institution credentialed engineer gets to Canada - everyone is at the same starting point.

Other than the skill set, personality & fit, IMO it's luck that plays a part in getting employed, together with knowing someone. Of course when one has a specialization in a particular field where there are openings, this my give one an edge, but you know what .... there are so many local qualified, trained & experienced engineers looking for work. how does that outsider compete - ever?

On the flip side, take a Canadian Engineer P.Eng with 5-10 years experience (or any foreign engineer) going to the UK would have the same issues, as would a returning Brit expat that has been away for several years saying 'I'm home, I'm an Engineer, employ me'!

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

worth a read

Why the world’s best and brightest struggle to find jobs in Canada - Macleans.ca

Canada Immigration: Foreign Skilled Workers Struggle To Find Jobs In Their Professions

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Although I agree it may not be as easy as you would think, British trained engineers can get their Ontario P.Eng designation a lot easier than people trained in some other countries. My background is also the nuclear industry, transferring from a large UK nuclear corporation to a smaller consultancy in Toronto 11 years ago. My husband transferred too, I do not have an engineering degree (mine is geophysics) so I didn't try to get my P.Eng, however my husband does have an engineering degree from a top Moscow University, to get P.Eng he has to take a phenomenal amount of additional technical exams, whereas the British trained engineers just have to demonstrate their work experience and take the ethics exam.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

its not always the case either & sometimes not so straightforward in Ontario, as noted by another BE member that started a similar thread last year, The discussion on that thread might help the OP

http://britishexpats.com/forum/canad.../#post11444127

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

I remember that thread too and the gist seemed to be that the ease of getting the designation seemed to depend on the specific engineering qualification and work experience. As my recent experience is in the nuclear industry, the same as the OP I thought it was worth commenting that it is most definitely possible that his route to P.Eng will not be so difficult. Obviously none of us can say for sure without knowing the exact details of his degree and extent of work experience.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

For the OP - one other point [in Ontario] is that not all those with the P.Eng designation have undergrad degrees, some with lesser qualifications [such as a technologist] or non accredited degrees that have to go the exam route to meet the academic requirements.

There are others with only a graduate degree, that do not have an undergrad degree, who may have gone an exam route, possibly a technologist or mature engineering background that entered a graduate program (which is possible to do in the UK & other countries).
.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

As someone currently doing my ICE training agreement here in the UK and having looked into getting P.Eng in BC, I certainly know which seems to be the easiest.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

That's simply not true for Ontario, although it does appear to hold for BC and Alberta. PEO openly states it does not recognise the Washington Accord signed on it's behalf by Engineers Canada, and there's a history on this going back to the seventies. Someone seriously pee'd on someone's chips back in the day...

This is true, for the record in my comment above I'm not referring to the non-degree qualified British engineers either. As the cost/ time demands of the non-degree route aren't that different from getting a degree I suspect this category will die out through natural wastage anyhow.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Its certainly true for the people working in the company I used to work for in Ontario. I know people that have done it, it may be a function of the particular branch of engineering.

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The only tendency I've noticed is those that apply "fresh off the boat" have trouble, those that leave it and get round to it after a couple of years seem to be a shoe in.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

:goodpost:

Thats about it for for Ontario, 99% of the time. Three years after starting worki in the engineering profession in Canada is usually the minimum period .

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

You could well have a point there.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Probably exacerbated by the "fresh off the boat" brigade (which includes me) not understanding the peculiar politics of PEO. Hence my strong suggestion to make contact through your institute before committing to anything!

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Apologies, I haven't responded as I have been away.

Thank you everyone for your contributions here, I really appreciate what everyone has written. Its all valuable information to me.

Some of the responses seem to presume that I expect to get special treatment as a British trained engineer, but I actually expect it to be far harder to find employment because I'm foreign trained and because I won't be familiar with the culture and standards used.

I've done quite a bit of research over the past couple of years and found that understandably the provinces seem annoyed that the Washington accord was signed at a federal level, seemingly without much provincial involvement. It seems the foreign trained engineers feel the pain of this disagreement between provincial engineering regulators and federal government. Its good to know that Alberta and BC are more favourable as Alberta is probably where I'd like to be.

I have a diploma in mechanical & manufacturing engineering, a degree in Mechanical Engineering, a masters in nuclear engineering and 10 years experience. My degree and masters are accredited in the UK by the engineering council, but I understand that in Canada this accreditation is worthless.

From what I've read a lot of engineers work in engineering type roles for a few years before going for PE with role titles such as mechanical practitioner or technologist. I think most Canada regulators require a year in full time employment before you can apply anyway.

It sounds as though there is an abundance of home grown engineers and foreign engineers fighting for a limited number of positions and so as a new comer I'd find it difficult to find employment. This is what I suspected with the global down turn in commodities and oil.

I read a lot about Canada wanting multiple skills like engineers and nurses (my girlfriend is a nurse) but the barriers put before both of these professions give more of an impression that we're not wanted. The likes of NZ and Aus seem far easier but they're not Canada and so not attractive to me.



Of those who are foreign trained engineers now working in Canada, did you move to Canada first with a residency visa and then seek employment?

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

The only one that will count here (for PEng application purposes) is the bachelors degree. Also you have to funnel into one of the 20 designations, so if you're going in as mechanical, anything nuclear won't count. This is where I've fallen foul of the system- my degree doesn't fall in one of the 20 pigeonholes. Ultimately this is why there are international mobility agreements in place.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Unfortunately you will be tarnished with the "fresh off the boat" factor, and the "no Canadian experience" of course the other thing standing in your way is that mechanical engineering is a regulated proffession.

I work for a big engineering company, I am just a humble draughtsman so my proffession isnt regulated, and as a result there are a lot less obstacles in making the transition. I work alongside engineers from all over the world, so its not impossible, but the majority of them have Canadian recognised qualifications.

On a slightly different note are you single/married, have a family? The only reason i ask, is if you are single, and already have PR, once you are here, you only have yourself to support, which is a lot easier, and you can get by on earning very little to begin with while you establish yourself.

As many people have found, its not what you know, its who you know that counts, to get your foot on the first rung of the ladder, which comes from building a social circle around yourself.

Paul.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Cheers guys. That's unfortunate with the MSc, but it is specialist so I guess that's to be expected.

I have a girlfriend and no dependants, my girlfriend is a mental health nurse and so she is also in a regulated profession. From what I've read the nurse route is more clearly defined but she still has some hurdles.

I own a house but before I look at moving abroad I'm going to buy and renovate another house and then rent both out. That way I'll have income from these properties, plus I'm more of a traveller than a materialistic person and so I've got savings.

I've read some engineers work doing engineers type work but with a different title and their work is then signed off by a PEng so I was hoping to do that and then pursue PEng when I've got some Canadian work experience.

Paul, I assume you're originally from the UK, do you find you're better off as draughtsman in Canada than in the UK? Do you think you have a better quality of life there?

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

I work in Engineering so let me give my 2 cents here.

The notion that foreign Engineers can never or rarely get work in Canada is completely wrong IMO (at least in the oil province). I have worked with engineers who drove cabs for years when they first came to Canada (those were people with abysmal English). But when the boom came (2009 onwards) every single one got a job in Engineering. I heard there at one point there was a shortage of cab drivers and pizza delivery people thanks to the boom :D

According to my own boss who is a Director, when the boom came they were so desperate for heads that they asked their employees to bring anyone who they knew who would like to work for them (no interviews) and they even paid them for doing that (although when a bunch of family and friends work together it creates a lot of nepotism in the workplace but that's a different story!)

I agree that your chances of getting employed are brighter if you have PEng or PMP or both but it is also very common for employers to sponsor you for those things.

Although one thing that you have to keep in mind is that Canada's economy goes through a lot of up and down. So unlike the UK where if one sector of Engineering goes down another sector goes up to make up for it, which of course creates alternative jobs that you can switch into (depending how transferable your skills are). And the economy in this part of Canada is certainly likely to stay like this unless the government does something about it and creates other sources of economic growth. But hey, at least when the times are good they then they are REALLY good. So being unemployed for a few months after having a good job for a few years or so may not be so bad cuz the salaries are generally much higher here. So if you are wise with how you manage your money when you have work then you can easily sail through when times are hard (and plus you get to live in a better country as well :D).

So I would say let not anyone discourage you from pushing your limits. You are a qualified person. Get out there and explore the world that God has created. Just the experience itself is sooo enriching that you wont regret that you tried.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

:goodpost:

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

P.Eng is just a money grab, does not prove anything, good thing it has only a provincial scope. You do not need to be P.Eng to do engineering jobs at the federal level (e.g. working for Transport Canada and the like). One or two years ago, OIQ tried to fine some "engineers" from Bombardier because they signed documents as engineers but w/o being P.Eng. In the end, because Transport Canada is the federal entity setting the standards for "engineering professionals" (the wording is important here as "engineer" seems to be a trademark from PEO, OIQ and co) in the aeronautical industry, OIQ just made fools of themselves by trying to fine these "engineers". AFAIAC, I would have more trust in an engineer from Germany, Italy or France, than in a PEng educated in Canada (in average, the Math skills are just not there in Canada, and neither are they in England lately).

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Edo, thank you for that post, its good to get first hand information and to get your insight on how things are. Particularly that you say a better country as a better quality of life is the priority.

To be honest in the UK engineering isn't great at the moment. I'm a self employed contractor and so I feel the ups and downs of the economy and sectors. So far I've managed to stay in continuous employment but with the exception of the car manufacturers and the supporting companies, all other sectors are flat and getting worse. There's a distinct lack of infrastructure investment despite this being high on a political agenda. Many smaller engineering companies have closed down around the northwest/Leeds and north east because the double whammy of a financial crisis and then no government expenditure has been too much to weather. So stay put, it's not very good here at the moment! Thank you again though for the information, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Sparkling water; that's interesting to read about federal services, and especially about the legal case, I assumed provincial ways were to only way to be honest. I'd agree with the education in England, I think its more the attitude of the nation rather than the quality of education though. There's a distinct lack of respect in the UK which filters through to the children who then have more interest in being gobby than learning.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Interestingly my experience with APECBC has been, at least so far, very positive. Yes I need a years work experience in Canada to obtain my official PE status but having contacted them a few weeks ago they are willing to pre-register me as a PE and I would then get my official status after a year.

This is based on 8 years experience in the UK and a MSc. Luckily my MSc does fall into a reasonably common pigeon hole although my experience and work is quite specialist.

Currently going through the process of moving to BC as an Intra-company transfer from which I am then hoping to move to PR. Staying with the same company is helping a lot. My own experience so far is that engineering, at least in my field, is more valued as a profession in Canada. Might be that there has been some recent high level public exposure in what I do.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

My experience with APEGBC was also very positive, the kaibosh came from PEO. If I hadn't applied with PEO I would have been in...

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Intra-company transfer would be the dream, that must make things far easier, just knowing you have a job when you land must be a big relief.
A couple I know live in BC, although they do say the traffic in and around Vancouver can be crazy and the house prices are expensive, it is clearly a massive increase in living standards.

Cheers for the information and I hope everything goes well in Canada for you :)

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Shakyuk,

Yes I am originally from the UK, I lived in the black country region, which is just to the west of Birmingham and very heavily industrialised....hence the name the black country.

It took me a while to get a job when i arrived in Canada (i did bartending for the first 9months of my life here) I applied for 80+ plus openings, and never heard anything from any of them, except for a handful of them, but now i have a job here, i do find I am considerably better off than i was in the UK, i had constant money worries there, that i dont have here, unless i really go overboard on the spending.

However i think some of this being better off is down to the fact i work for huge corporate engineering company, so the salary and benefits are good....more so for the fact that it is located in a relative rural part of Ontario which is a little cheaper than living in TO or the GTA. Property and things like gas are a lot cheaper, so that releases extra cash.

Added to this, the salary and benefits the corporate companies seem to offer employees in North America for my job is better than it is in the UK, for example the company i work for has branches manufacturing the same product in France and the UK, my counterpart draughters in the UK earn markedly less than we do in Canada, I have no idea why. This however is just one example, there are companies here that offer a lot less. So i suppose i got lucky. Swings and roundabouts i suppose!

Paul.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

Anytime Sir. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Re: State of Engineering in Canada
 

I'll add in my 2 cents as well.

I was trained in Scotland as a railway and structural engineer and moved to the GTA in a kind of intra-company transfer in January this year. I spent 18 months of seriously looking for jobs in Canada both within and outwith the company I work for and didn't get anywhere at all. What did help was coming on vacation to Toronto in August last year where I managed to organise interviews with 4 companies. The partner company of the company I worked for in the UK was one of them and offered me a job 2-3 months later but 2 of the other companies I interviewed for both said they wanted to hire me but didn't have any openings. In summary, I find the only way into a job in Canada is by knowing people. In UK I've heard the saying "80% of jobs are never advertised". In Canada it's much more than that.

There's a lot of things I prefer about Canadian practices. Engineering is far more diverse here and people get on with each other far better I find. It's a more positive environment for sure. The pay is significantly more (even with the really low exchange rate right now, I earn 33% more here than I did in Scotland for the same responsibility level).

Any questions moving across give me a PM, I took care of everything myself.