bazzz

It's not such a big deal to make the most important information available in all languages and to employ multi-lingual people where necessary. And so long as painting hens blue is legal, ethnic group B will just have to put up with it. The only thing that you should demand from new immigrants is that they obey the laws of the land.

MikeUK

Makes for much fun, and many groups demanding that they need to be catered for, I believe the last bash was demands for sharia law in Ontario which was eventually turned down…

But slightly more seriously, it does give rise to issues but carefully managed laws and the availability of interpreters is all it seems to need
We have many multinational bodies such as the human rights courts, world trade organizations etc that function despite cultural and linguistic issues
I think it seems to be an ‘English’ thing to need every body to talk the same language, I’ve been in many meetings in Europe where more than one language has been used, and in some up to three of four comfortably used between all parties with no adverse result on the conclusion.
I would agree that one set of laws would be required, but if these are built around simple human rights and standard business models then all that would be upset would be the extremes and as they tend to be minorities within their own culture then just a few will be upset

DaveTheCat

What about the threshold needed for a language to appear in a multi-language leaflet? How many speakers do they need to have in Canada/a certain province/town? 1,000? 243? one mil? Would it be acceptable if someone belonging to the Mongolian community couldn't find a multi-lingual interpreter at the hospital and kicked the bucket, whereas a Punjabi monolingual would have no problems of this sort, because in Vancouver there are 13 monolingual Mongolians and half a mil of Punjabis? (fictitious figures, of course, for the sake of the argument)
Wouldn't it be much easier and less red tape involved (i.e. less money out of our pockets, as those things are subsidised from taxes of all sorts) if those individuals simply could communicate in English? is this such an offensive requirement? would you find it offensive if you migrated to Finland and Finns would ask you to learn basic Finnish before a visa is granted?

Think so? Let me give you a concrete example: group A finds masculine presence around a public swimming pool offensive; group B finds this absolutely normal. Group A doesn't even think about putting up with it and the powers-to-be kick group A out.

DaveTheCat

Yes, but in Europe they all find painting hens blue really offensive

MikeUK

Group A gets one time at the pool, group B gets another time

I think you can demand your national languge if you have had a true nation in place for a significnat amount of time,
howvere I don't think the same applies if you choose to build your nation on the backs of immigrants of multiple nations

DaveTheCat

It is a public pool, where groups B to Z had been happily mingling until group A attained a critical mass which allowed them to claim offense and the powers-to-be considered such a claim acceptable.
Is it right for the host to take kafkaesque measures to accomodate one guest or another? wouldn't it be natural for the guest to try and comply with the law of the land (they chose themselves as their second home)? where are the limits (if indeed there are limits) for such ridiculous claims?

C'mon... Just look at AB and SK - so many names are Ukrainian there, but they all became English-speakers very quickly; I'm not even sure that the first generation born on Canadian soil from Ukrainian parents ever knew other language than English -- simply because they wanted to become Canadians, they wanted to integrate.

bazzz

If there's enough demand, then why not have sessions that accommodate them? I'm sure there are other people who would appreciate that too (like my atheist white English girlfriend). Otherwise, there's nothing stopping this community building their own pool and deciding on regulations themselves.

DaveTheCat

Because it's a public pool? and what if other five zillions groups, sects and associations would come up with their own criteria? wouldn't that lead to 2.1-second sessions?

Bingo! The keyword here was "public". In a free society like ours it would only be natural to have a community space that only the community would regulate to accomodate its members. In the aforementioned case though, the community was "the Canadian public" as defined by Canadian norms, not Group A or Phi or the Romulans.

startwin

This whole discussion is getting silly, when is common sense going to kick in? Think of the flight industry - there is one common language. It doesn't matter which language as long as everyone has an understanding of it. Ergo, the official languages of Canada are French and English. Therefore, it is up to us as immigrants (or citizens) to understand at least one of those languages. Not to demand interpretations in a million different languages. We'd have no forests left for all the paper that has to be printed. I believe our various authorities do their best to provide interpretation services in emergency or where required, but you can't cover all bases.

As for various beliefs, nothing wrong with holding on to your ethnic beliefs and culture. You just shouldn't impose them on others - far too many different ethnic groups so we should just do our best to be tolerant and considerate. In other words, decent human beings.

I do my best to communicate with everyone, I've learned a smattering of languages, (badly!!) including Japanese and Cantonese. Sign language works great when everyone is trying genuinely to communicate! But this leads us back to the original argument of ethnic groups sticking together and not trying to talk with others or share or socialise. Why not stay in your own country if you only want to associate with your own race and do not want to talk to others?

DaveTheCat

Never. Had there been any common sense, this "issue" wouldn't have existed in the first place.

Amen.

dbd33

What in Kafka relates to swimming? I've read, indeed quizzed a potential pool manager, on the rules and policies of Toronto Parks and Rec as regards swimming pools and I've recently reread both The Trial and The Castle but don't see the connection. Did the Czechs have a particular policy with regard to people wanting to use public pools in German?

On your last point, you're too late, Canada is a multiculture, there's nothing, or everything, with which to integrate. A Punjabi coming to farm in his native language in Caledon is as integrated as someone speaking Cantonese in Vancouver.

DaveTheCat

I rest my case.

dbd33

I don't think you have a case. The pool regulations mostly deal with health and safety issues. The closest they come to dealing with a politically sensitive matter is the case of inappropriate costumes and there the concern is the right of the invidual to display his asset vs. the desire of the public not to have to see it. Living with a pool manager for yonks I heard all about pool issues; guns, drugs, gay sex in the changing rooms, illicit nocturnal swimming, were perennials. The idea of exclusive use by specific ethnic groups only came up in contrasting pools here with those in the VA thirty years ago. It's no longer acceptable to say that, at specific times, the facility is only available to people of a particular background; multiculturalism doesn't imply apartheid. Josef K can swim at any time the pool is open.

DaveTheCat

It might've been a case of miscommunication between us. So, what you're saying here is "the pool manager, instead of dealing with health and safety issues, made an absurd and grotesque (kafkaesque!) bureaucratic decision, with profound political implications"? If so, that's exactly what I said myself, so no argument here.

dbd33

I'm saying that in Toronto, perhaps the epicenter of multiculturalism, there's is no ethnic partitioning of swimming pools, nor should there be. If, elsewhere in the world, there is such partitioning it is not a function of multiculturalism.
Thus, your suggestion that a government policy of encouraging immigrants to retain their language and customs is flawed because it leads to people demanding exclusive use of swimming pools for people of their ethnicity doesn't hold water. Even it did, a squabble over swimming would be a storm in a chlorinated tea cup when set against the advantages of accepting the inevitability of having a diverse society.