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recent visit to AB & BC

recent visit to AB & BC

Old Jun 5th 2007, 4:35 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by MikeUK
You know I heard something similar happened in Canada about 400 years ago...

Bunch of people got off a boat and never really bothered to speak the local language gradually the numbers rose and then they tried to move in and take over
Take over what? an already existing state/society? and, please, no PC relativism here - I don't think the myriad of native tribes would be the same thing as the current Canadian society (or any other current society, for that matter).


Originally Posted by MikeUK
I believe its sometimes called progress
Sometimes, yes. Then, definitely no; it was called colonisation -- through war, extermination and other similar niceties. Not only because it used to be the method du jour, but also because, as I've just stated, there wasn't really a society to colonise from within.
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 4:37 pm
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by MikeUK
You know I heard something similar happened in Canada about 400 years ago...

Bunch of people got off a boat and never really bothered to speak the local language gradually the numbers rose and then they tried to move in and take over

I believe its sometimes called progress

That's quite possibly the most arrogant comment I've ever read on this forum.
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 4:39 pm
  #18  
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by benrush
Recently returned from fact find trip and wanted to share my experiences.
Has been 2 years since last visit to Calgary airport found people employed at the airport who could not speak a word of English/French!!!! Seem to remember a section on forms regarding the level of English/French ability one had to have to score points. Spoke to some locals in Vancouver and they are in a bit of a state about numbers of certain religion/nationality that dont seem to want to become Canadian or have anything to do with any others apart from their own kind. Told them same problem in UK and before I get branded a racist thought I would mention I am from the same ethnic group but consider myself British.
I think you might have the wrong country. The point of Canada is that it's a multiculture, if you're in the Greek part of town people speak Greek, in the Italian part they speak Italian, it's not a requirement and in Toronto it's not even usual, that people go about their business in English or French.
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 4:51 pm
  #19  
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by dbd33
I think you might have the wrong country. The point of Canada is that it's a multiculture, if you're in the Greek part of town people speak Greek, in the Italian part they speak Italian, it's not a requirement and in Toronto it's not even usual, that people go about their business in English or French.
Food for thought (some may call it "can o'worms"): is it better, in the long run, for a society (and its social fabric) to be multicultural or a melting pot?
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 5:08 pm
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by DaveTheCat
Food for thought (some may call it "can o'worms"): is it better, in the long run, for a society (and its social fabric) to be multicultural or a melting pot?

Well that is the $64,000 ($72,300 in Canada) question.

I think there's a good case that the philosophy doesn't matter, Chicago's almost as ghettoized as Toronto despite the government having a different approach.
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 5:26 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by dbd33
Well that is the $64,000 ($72,300 in Canada) question.

I think there's a good case that the philosophy doesn't matter, Chicago's almost as ghettoized as Toronto despite the government having a different approach.
Never been to Chicago, but (feel free to correct me here) I assume you're talking about the black/white segregation. While this is a serious problem, could it really be as dangerous as different ethnic/linguistic virtually autonomous entities? Again, I think that the main culprit here is the inept policy-maker with the Immigration Office who doesn't seem to have (at least in theory) some sort of ethnic balancing tool as our friends the Yankos have (again, at least in theory) for their Visa Lottery thingie. You don't have to be a statistician to understand that if say 5% of any society have the migration itch, when you have a country with 100 million people vs. another one with only 10, then it is obvious that the host country will experience an profound ethnic imbalance if it doesn't take into account such factors.

Last edited by DaveTheCat; Jun 5th 2007 at 5:29 pm.
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 5:49 pm
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by DaveTheCat
Never been to Chicago, but (feel free to correct me here) I assume you're talking about the black/white segregation.

No. I was thinking of the hispanics on the south side.

Originally Posted by DaveTheCat
While this is a serious problem, could it really be as dangerous as different ethnic/linguistic virtually autonomous entities?
Blacks in ghettos, in Chicago and elsewhere, do live as a "virtual autonomous" entity. There's some interaction with, for example, Koreans, but it's not peaceful. It's very much the same as the way Koreans and Blacks or Palestinians and Jews interact in Toronto.

I don't see that there's a practical difference between the results of a melting pot policy and a multicultural one; it's only in jobs such as fruit picking where the workforce comes from all over and lives in bunkhouses that immigrants from countries as diverse as Somali and Poland directly mingle.
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 6:04 pm
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by DaveTheCat
Food for thought (some may call it "can o'worms"): is it better, in the long run, for a society (and its social fabric) to be multicultural or a melting pot?
It quite possibly will open a can of worms. Very touchy subject on this forum in the past. I often think this "Mosaic" system in Canada is leading to all kinds of problems because communication is breaking down. You also tend to find people simply don't integrate and just stay within their own ethnic group. What a rich society we would have if everyone "mixed". But it's just not happening. I believe that if you choose to move to another country the onus is on you to attempt to integrate and contribute, not to stay isolated and uncommunicative. What's the point of emigrating, if you do that? Oh yes, better life and no more poverty for lots, but those are the people who do make the attempt to integrate. I have learned so much about other cultures from people I work with and neighbours who choose to socialise and communicate. The "melting pot" system in the US doesn't seem to work, either.
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 6:13 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by startwin
I believe that if you choose to move to another country the onus is on you to attempt to integrate and contribute, not to stay isolated and uncommunicative. What's the point of emigrating, if you do that?
That's what Canada asks of immigrants. Multiculturalism is what Canada's about.

(Thank God, or Trudeau, I say. It would be unbearable if it were only plaid shirts, Kodiaks and cinquante.)
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 6:32 pm
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by startwin
It quite possibly will open a can of worms. Very touchy subject on this forum in the past.
Isn't this appalling? Just because some morons & skinheads jump up and down with rage, shouting "Mycountry for myfellowcountrymen!" and "Mypreferredethnictarged out!", we should all avoid debating such an important subject, afraid that some morons of a different sort might put the equality sign between us and the skinheads?

Originally Posted by startwin
I I often think this "Mosaic" system in Canada is leading to all kinds of problems because communication is breaking down. You also tend to find people simply don't integrate and just stay within their own ethnic group.
Communication and, well, perpetuation of "traditional" animosities. A hates B back home. If ethnic As and Bs do not eventually become Canadians, they will perpetuate the same old feud and their offspring too.

Originally Posted by startwin
What a rich society we would have if everyone "mixed".
Absolutely.

Originally Posted by startwin
But it's just not happening.
Not here in Canada, alas. But I've seen it happen elsewhere -- and it was really interesting and, well, heart-warming. I've seen it in places like Brasil, Israel and to a certain extent, Down Under. You realise then that all that "racial animosity" is NOT a race thing, but a cultural one. When you speak the same language (let alone in the same accent) and have the same standards for "civilisation" and "society", nobody really notices skin colour or other physical attributes (and if you notice it, it's only in amazement: "wow, I'd never even realised that X might be this or that" -- because X is like you - and people (with the exception of some total morons) are not as shallow as some activits like to define them,

Originally Posted by startwin
The "melting pot" system in the US doesn't seem to work, either.
But can we still speak of a melting pot in today's America? hasn't the melting pot become politically incorrect?
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 6:43 pm
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by MarkG
If the 'First Nations' folks could go back in time and throw the Europeans back into the sea, don't you think they would do so?
no, would be my reply to that one
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 6:45 pm
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by DaveTheCat
But can we still speak of a melting pot in today's America? hasn't the melting pot become politically incorrect?
Yes we can, nothing politically incorrect about such a mainstream idea.
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 6:54 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by dbd33
Yes we can, nothing politically incorrect about such a mainstream idea.
Allrighty. I was under the impression that "multiculturalism" had become the mot-du-jour and "melting pot" had been abandonned as "offensive and non-PC". Again, I'm not an expert in Americana; it was just the feeling I got by zapping through several televised debates.
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 8:48 pm
  #29  
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by hot wasabi peas
That's quite possibly the most arrogant comment I've ever read on this forum.
Yep...

But was attempting to refer to situations in modern Canada where a culture or race has moved in to what was seen as white Canada and grown and become the dominant group
Brampton where I live didn’t earn its nickname Bramlasdesh for nothing, and happily sports almost all Sikh members of parliament simply because they care enough to get involved and look after their community,
English and French may have been the language of the original colonizers, but considering that many more now come from east Asia then the relevance of them being seen as language others need to adopt to conform seems largely a need of white Canada and not the greater need of the larger community that seem to be developing in our bigger cities

My perception of Canada is a home for those that need a home and one that accepts you for what you are, and a society that doesn’t expect you to change language or culture or habits on arrival.
This need to assimilate is something that I would expect in old Europe or the US
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Old Jun 5th 2007, 9:08 pm
  #30  
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Default Re: recent visit to AB & BC

Originally Posted by MikeUK
Yep...
My perception of Canada is a home for those that need a home and one that accepts you for what you are, and a society that doesn’t expect you to change language or culture or habits on arrival.
This need to assimilate is something that I would expect in old Europe or the US
From a pragmatic point of view (i.e. no political passions, pro-this or anti-that), how is a society supposed to function when there are many non-reciprocally-intelligible languages involved? don't you think they'd need at least one lingua franca? how about its legal/value system? how can you have a coherent legal system when painting hens blue is a cherished tradition for ethnic group A, but a horrendous offense for ethnic group B? and so on...
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