Ravines - House problem
 

Well, 4th day in on our Ottawa trip and have hit a potentially serious problem, have done some interweb searches on here and other places but this is specific so any structural engineers out there a little guidence would be welcome.

Have decided to buy a property with a ravine with a creek at the back, house currently empty.

Looked around the house on our own today (Saturday) to take photos and suss out the area and neighbours. We got talking to someone who lived a few doors down and he broke the news that the driveway in front and side of the garages, which was and is being held back from the ravine with railway sleepers, had partially collapsed because pressure on the lower supports had made the upper sleepers give way. This was made worse because water from the creek below the ravine had seeped over the years into the sides nearest the property weakening the land over it.

I phoned the realtor who got on to the sellers realtor and found out she (the sellers realtor) was aware of the problem and that steps had been made to rectify it, unspecifed at this time. On monday our realtor is going to try and find out as much information as she can about the issue and get evidence on how it was tackled. The neighbour doesn't think anything has been done, but then he may have an agenda of his own...Maybe he's giving scare stories to potential buyers because he's working to get someone he wants into the property...but who knows...

My problem is that the property is undervalued, says our realtor, and I must say I agree as the properties we've been looking at have been nowhere near the size or in such a good position in relation to the services such as main roads, stores etc.

Everyone I've spoken to today reckons it's no big deal, but the local government bods (the city as one person put it) is legally liable to prevent the creek water from damaging the property, as the water is their responsibility, apparently. So it's been suggested that if I bought the house to hassle the city into sorting out the water problem and maybe at the same time filling in part of the ravine to increase the land area next to the house/garages. We have an inspector coming on Tuesday (the day before we come back to the UK) and hopefully he can tell me the best way forward, and whether the hassle and money is worth it, I'd like however to be able to ask the right questions and any vagueness on his part I can tackle him on. It's going to cost me $350 but hey, such is life.

Once the property inside has been re-vamped it'll be the dog's bollock$ (really nice) :-) . But the ravine thing has put a spanner in the works. Now my wife has gone into a deep depression on the news and can't be consoled, as I type this in our lonely hotel room she has gone to bed and cried herself to sleep...

I said I'd have a chat to 'my mates' on BE and within 24 hours we'll have it all sorted and she can have her dream house after all...

Have put on some pics to make it a bit clearer.

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

as I type this in our lonely hotel room she has gone to bed and cried herself to sleep...


This won't change.


But seriously. the city should sort this out, if indeed it needs sorting. You need to ask yourself how much over the selling price is the house worth to you (in context). No expert here, but maybe $20k to fix?

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

I knew I could rely on you:cool:

I've been told by the 'experts' that the house, if around $50,000 is spent on the inside, would be worth about $150,000 more. Good investment all round I'd say, and we can just afford it. We can channel some of the money into dealing with the ravine, however, if the ravine problem is an ongoing money pit (no pun intended) and the house can't be resold because of it we're in deep $hit...
Never dealt with a problem such as this so completely at the mercy of the people here in Canada, just want some spiritual and practical guidance from people who've been through this themselves, or have the background to give some advice.
$20,000 would be 'doable' as they say in business parlance, allegedly.

<<as I type this in our lonely hotel room she has gone to bed and cried herself to sleep...

This won't change. >>


And yes, you're quite right Novo, this won't change.;)

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Steve666,

I am not a structural engineer, so you can take my advice with a pinch of salt:

(1) Why did the seller not declare this problem up front? Surely if it has been sorted, they would have brought this to your attention. I recently looked at a nice log home which was being offered at $15k below an independant valuation. The valuation mentioned a crack in the basement wall which it 'assumed' was not serious and would take about $1k to repair. I looked at the crack - and I know it is a seriour issue and repair will entail lifting the house and replacing the wall - at least a $20k job. I suspect your erosion problem could be more expensive.

(2) What (written) assurances do you have that the city would fix this problem?

(3) Why is the property being sold cheap?

(4) Soil erosion leading to landslides are a serious issue - what assurance do you have that further erosion won't result in your driveway and garage dissapearing into the ravine?My advice would be, do not buy this property without a structural survey from a qualified engineer who will provide you with the safety of proffesional indemnity, should his survey turn out wrong.

Think of it like this - you are about to lay out a large sum of money. Would you buy a car with an obvious oil-leak under it which you spotted, merely because the vendor told you "Oh, don't worry about that, we patched it and the garage down the road promised to fix it for free".

Remember, if a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Harrased_Dad

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Steve, mate: get a contractor to look at it. It's not like it's something that has to be dealt with on day one, if it has to be dealt with at all. Then decide.

By the way, I'm so bored that I bothered to figure out that 1010011010 actually does come to 666.

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Then why isn't the vendor spending that 50k?

Furthermore, I presume you are buying the house to live in. Making money on a house is nice, but should not be your primary aim (this is a curious disease of our UK housing market outlook).

Judging by your other half's reaction - how do you think she would cope if you bought the house then things went went tits up?

And I would really recommend paying for a structural or soil engineers advice rather than a contractor - a few hundred quid now could save you thousands in the long run, and will give you far more peace of mind. An engineer will offer impartial advice and his proffesional obligation will be to you, his client. Furthermore his reputation will be on the line. A contractor might just have an incentive to tell you that he can fix the problem.

Harrased_Dad

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

What he said.

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

First, thanks for the reply, uh, dad.
My questions exactly, the house has been on sale for 10 months, and it was obvious when you walk in that a lot of work has to be done to get the interior back to a good standard. This, we were told by the sellers realtor, is why the property is being sold undervalued. The ravine wasn't mentioned at all, in fact the general thing about ravines in Canada is that they sell a house so didn't question it. Lucky for us we went round and spoke to the neighbour. Yes, a structural survey is what's needed, but I'm getting more and more unsure about the hassle this property could potentially give us when we'll already have enough on our plates.
Good call dad:thumbup:

Looks like I'm going to have to magic up another beautiful house for my good wife so she can use all the 'home decorating' magazines she's bought today.
Oh dear:(

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

:D

Yep, I guess it's back to the drawing board...
Arnprior sunday, maybe something there.

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Hi Steve

What can i say except welcome to the wonderful world of house buying. Just when you thought you had got to the easy more enjoyable part you end up getting stressed and upset. Believe me we know what you are going through.

We looked at over 20 houses in the end and lost out on one as we weren't prepared to put up anymore money and i'm glad now we stuck to our guns as although we have paid more than we were going to at least the place we are now buying doesn't require any work.
The home insection thing is really good over here, we also paid $350 and he certainly spends time explaining all the issues he has found and even quotes approx repair costs to fix certain problems however it may be that he would recommend further detailed inspection by a specialist in your case so you may not get the answer you need from him, i don't know.
After spending some time considering places we had seen and several sleepless nights i decided that i didn't come to Canada to spend the next 10 years of my life repairing and renovating a house with all the stress and cost that it entails i've been there and done that if you know what i mean, this is why we ended up buying what we did and apart from re painting walls to suit our taste we can hopefully enjoy some quality stress free time together.

Well that's the plan and my ten pennies worth so hope it works out whatever you do.

Printer.

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

More good points, ok I'm convinced, I'll let our realtor know tomorrow we're not interested. Weight off my shoulders.

Bless you dad.

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Steve,

best of luck. Don't be too pessimistic - an engineer might say things are okay. However, the idea that someone would leave a place unsold for 10 months despite being 150k below the going price for the area is questionable.

I have also noticed that, unlike in the UK, decor makes far less impression on knowledgeable buyers in Canada (I guess they are more addicted to 'Holmes on Homes' than 'Changing Rooms') who are far more interested in modern insulation etc.

Looking for a new home is very stressful - my job means I have had to move far more often than most, and in my experience, it isn't the home that makes life good or bad in the end. As long as it is comfortable, it shouldnt make much difference. People are far more important.

Canadian homes and properties are so much larger than in the UK we poor Brits tend to get carried away. I mean, where I am I could have 50acres of land for $100k, with a free house thrown in :D

That wouldn't buy you a garage in much of the UK :(

Take a deep breath and assess what is really important. Do you really need 2.5 bathrooms? A lounge and a rec room? How often do you really think you will use those extra bedrooms? I'm renting a place at the moment, about 2000 square feet, four bedrooms. I swear I haven't set foot in two of the bedrooms in six months, my lounge is never used, the playroom in the basement is rarely worth the hassle (my young daughter still needs supervision) and the rest of the basement is full of crap. Honestly, I could live in a place half the size, and it would take a lot less cleaning, freeing up time for fun stuf.

I have had my time redecorating and renovating - I bought and sold a few properties in the UK doing quite well. But honestly, the best place I ever lived (prior to coming to Canada) was all about the neighbours.

Buy a place to live in, not to sell.

Harrased_Dad

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Hi print!
Some more very good points from your good self.
Yes, for the last couple of days it's been a strain, we've seen about 15 houses so far, all quite good with one or two very good, but this particular house is stunning, and all the other places we've seen just pale into insignificance against it.
I'm getting a bit worried about the money though, our house hasn't sold yet and the estate agents (2) keep on about reducing the price. Taking this other house on at the same time may mean we have to get a bridging loan, not good. So talking like this on here has made me see sense and during the last 30 minutes I've decided to drop the nice white house idea and get back on the 'sensible and don't get into the $hit' track again.

Mrs Steve666 may have a job offer on Monday in Ottawa so she may be here on her own while I sell the house back in blighty, then join her with the kids.

You doing ok?

Strange being 5 hours behind the UK, most people logged off of the Canadian forum.

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Just to be clear - I was recommending a structural or soil engineer do a survey in addition to a home surveyor's inspection. Printer is quite right that your problem would be beyond their knowledge.

The Canadian home surveys are very good though - most importantly, unlike in the UK it is expected that you will accompany the home surveyor, so you get to see what he is talking about and ask questions in addition to his written report.

Harrased_Dad

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Oh you goon you:D
We'll make a computer bod of you yet...

Binary is beautiful.

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Hi Steve

Yeah things are going well. we are renting a basement suite from the MK Murrays who landed a couple of weeks before us and only moved in 3 days before we decended upon them so it just goes to show that these forums are extremely useful and people on here are very helpful. (Well with the odd exception i suppose)
Life is good, the weather is very hot, been in the lake again today and visited some waterslides on Thursday. Cannot wait to get into our own place now, only 7 days to go although we won't have our furniture till the 24th and no TV or internet till 25th but hey i'm sure we'll survive.
Currently sitting outside on the patio using a wireless connection and swatting the odd mozzie whilst the kids are engrossed in cable TV. I haven't really looked at the TV since being here but i think we get 99 channels of complete shite!!!!!!!!!

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Steve,

one last thing - I highly recommend having a look at this website:

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/

The Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation (a govt department) have a range of useful worksheets on house hunting, inspections and so on. I found the advice on the site invaluable.

Harrased_Dad

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

I am not an engineer ,however,I have seen
enough sink holes , landslides ,tilted houses in my lifetime.

When I was the pictures and the description of the ravines,
personally I won't touch it regardless of the basement bargain
price. Just my humble opinion.
Yoong

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

I am an engineering geologsit and I know something about landslides.

It looks like you have a landslide problem, potentially regressive (ie it will migrate backwards up the slope), likely to be triggered by rain/high water tables and not directly (though you could say indirectly) linked to the ravine water.

I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. It could be a moneypit and I mean pit (it can take a lot of money to hold a hillside back, done properly it would need borehole investigation, monitoring of water table, then some sort of retaining solution/regrading,drainage). Way way more than the $20K you are estimating and possibly way more than the profit in the house. Then you may have problems with your buildings insurance and resale. I don't know how mortgages work over there but here, I don't think the house would be mortgageable until fixed.

In UK governement wouldn't do anything, but i have no idea about UK.

I would step away.

Gryphea

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

PS

If this hasn't put you off I would secure a report from a local geological engineer. This will cost. They may give you further reassurances once they have seen the slope, if the slope is mainly comprised in situ rock it may be more stable than it looks. I doubt this is the case though. Most likely what this report will say is that it is unstable/potentially unstable and recommend further work to understand the problem. All of which is expensive but will be required to understand the risk. I would never recommend individuals take such a risk with their money. A company with a spread of risks and different sites could take the risk, as they could effectively manage and balance it.

This house is cheap for a reason!

Gryph
+

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

In Thornbury we have several beautiful homes that back onto a Ravine through which the Beaver River runs.

Not a question of IF but WHEN these houses slide into the gully.

Scarborough have had several homes slide into the bluffs.

Ravines sound great, just ask the Teenagers who love to party in them.

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

AS the final nail in its coffin, there are reasons (which you have found) why no one else has bought it, even if you have it fixed, the ravine is not going to go away, it will be a recurring problem.

When you want to sell the house it could come back and bite you big time, as you paid out for the investigations etc., you will be legally bound to disclose the problem to a future buyer. Your seller is not duty bound as it is an obvious problem and so does not have to be disclosed, but once the problem is not obvious, but is known about, then it has to be disclosed. Its all due to Caveat Emptor (buyer beware) laws here in Canada.

Put simply, re-sale will be a B#tch.:thumbdown:

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Steve,

You've had some excellent replies and there's not much I can add but to ask who put those bloody great concrete blocks in front of the garage doors and why?

We actually know why, but was that the city or municipality if so they obviously think the property unsafe.

There's not a lot of room to maneuver in and out of that garage door on the right is there? Even if the blocks were not there.

As others have also said and as disappointing as it seems my advice would, run away, run away as fast as you can.:eek::eek:

Cheers
Steve

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank you guys for the feedback on the 'white house on the ravine' problem.

Very much appreciated views and solid arguments for backing out of the sale from Harrased_Dad, gryphea, MB-Realtor, printer and anyone else I've missed out, thanks a lot people:thumbup:

Showed my wife your posts and she's much happier we made the right decision, so she's back in a good mood now:) Living in a hotel room with a depressed woman I can do without at the moment.

steve_p, those concrete blocks are to stop cars going over the ravine, as you guessed. Don't know who put them there but they are to be removed when the house is sold, if ever.

BUYER BEWARE INDEED!

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Steve, perhaps I am back to being cynical here but I think those concrete blocks are also to indicate the ground on the other side is unstable.:eek::eek:

Re: Ravines - House problem
 

Yep, and that :)

Looking back I remember the 2 garage doors nearest to the ravine were bolted and screwed shut.

Strange what people refuse to believe when they have their heart set on a place...:huh: