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Racist Employers

Racist Employers

Old Apr 29th 2015, 2:40 pm
  #166  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by JonboyE View Post
I have re-read the post you quoted carefully several times and I can't see anywhere an accusation that UKIP distinguishes between the race or skin colour of immigrants.
Where did I say that you did?
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Old Apr 29th 2015, 6:48 pm
  #167  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by JonboyE View Post
I have re-read the post you quoted carefully several times and I can't see anywhere an accusation that UKIP distinguishes between the race or skin colour of immigrants.
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
Where did I say that you did?
Children, stop it.

A passing comment was made (by exkiwi, I think) linking UKIP and racism. Somebody else (JamesM?) suggested that the EDL would be a better comparison to draw. Almost Canadian, as is his wont, asked a question to which we know he already knew the answer, and from which he clearly expected inferences to be drawn. JonboyE called out that the question was rather tangential to what had previously been stated, and Almost Canadian once again asks a question about a question without answering any of it.

AC, you make valuable contributions in a number of discussions. But your lawerly habit of asking questions to try and provoke a bite that you can subsequently quote back out of context is, frankly, rather irritating. If you have an opinion to express, why don't you express it, rather than goading others into raising a straw man so that you can knock it down?
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Old Apr 29th 2015, 7:27 pm
  #168  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Children, stop it.

A passing comment was made (by exkiwi, I think) linking UKIP and racism. Somebody else (JamesM?) suggested that the EDL would be a better comparison to draw. Almost Canadian, as is his wont, asked a question to which we know he already knew the answer, and from which he clearly expected inferences to be drawn. JonboyE called out that the question was rather tangential to what had previously been stated, and Almost Canadian once again asks a question about a question without answering any of it.

AC, you make valuable contributions in a number of discussions. But your lawerly habit of asking questions to try and provoke a bite that you can subsequently quote back out of context is, frankly, rather irritating. If you have an opinion to express, why don't you express it, rather than goading others into raising a straw man so that you can knock it down?
^This is very much why I don't bother with AC anymore. Irritating is an understatement.
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Old Apr 29th 2015, 7:27 pm
  #169  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Children, stop it.
Yes Sir!

Though I do think there is some value, as Exkiwilass is not British, in adding some context to other posts.
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Old Apr 29th 2015, 7:51 pm
  #170  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Children, stop it.

A passing comment was made (by exkiwi, I think) linking UKIP and racism. Somebody else (JamesM?) suggested that the EDL would be a better comparison to draw. Almost Canadian, as is his wont, asked a question to which we know he already knew the answer, and from which he clearly expected inferences to be drawn. JonboyE called out that the question was rather tangential to what had previously been stated, and Almost Canadian once again asks a question about a question without answering any of it.
I asked ExKiwilass to explain her link between UKIP and racism. JonboyE made a comment and I put forward what I believed UKIP's position was (they were not a party that people discussed when I left, so I have no local knowledge as to what their position is). I asked a simple question. I then made a statement regarding the number of racists there must be in the UK if UKIP is a party of racists, based upon the number of their supporters.

A bit of banter with Shard and then a question/accusation from JonboyE which I answered - the only question I was actually asked!

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
AC, you make valuable contributions in a number of discussions. But your lawerly habit of asking questions to try and provoke a bite that you can subsequently quote back out of context is, frankly, rather irritating. If you have an opinion to express, why don't you express it, rather than goading others into raising a straw man so that you can knock it down?
I don't believe that I ever quote anything back out of context.

There was a thread started recently asking why BE has been quiet lately. Your post and that of the professor, IMVHO, personify the reason why. No one is permitted to hold a view remotely different from that of the mainstream. If they do, it is completely shot down, usually, by name calling. Hagrid's thread demonstrates this. The friggin thread is still ongoing notwithstanding the fact that he has been banned.

JonboyE is, in all likelihood, the best poster on this board, followed very closely, by you and that DBD chap.

As I appear to irritate so much, I shall do what the professor has been suggesting for as long as I can remember.
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Old Apr 29th 2015, 8:19 pm
  #171  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Children, stop it.

Somebody else (JamesM?) suggested that the EDL would be a better comparison to draw.
That was not I.

But it was a valid point.
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Old Apr 29th 2015, 9:48 pm
  #172  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
There was a thread started recently asking why BE has been quiet lately. Your post and that of the professor, IMVHO, personify the reason why. No one is permitted to hold a view remotely different from that of the mainstream. If they do, it is completely shot down, usually, by name calling.
I'm quite happy to hold non-mainstream views, as you know.

Keep posting as you like. Everyone on here has their own rather predictable style and tone after a while. I enjoy your arguments even though I rarely agree with them!
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Old Apr 29th 2015, 10:13 pm
  #173  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
As I appear to irritate so much, I shall do what the professor has been suggesting for as long as I can remember.
Oh, please don't flounce (again? or is it just my imagination that there was a self-imposed period of exile from BE a while ago?) on my account. Perhaps I should have highlighted the bit at the beginning of the second part of my previous post that you quoted. And I hope we mostly remember, as I think you said a while ago, that much of what you post is not necessarily reflective of your own views, but designed to provoke thoughtful debate.

If I may be so bold as to try to play you at your own game, where did I say that you "irritate so much"?

I'm probably as guilty of anybody of sniping at regulars. I do try to lay off the newbies a bit more, but I'd have thought those who have been around for a while have thicker skins than to get upset at such trifles. And I certainly would never shoot somebody down for holding a view at odds with my own. Engage in debate - yes, that's sort of what a forum is for.

Last edited by Oakvillian; Apr 29th 2015 at 10:15 pm.
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Old Apr 29th 2015, 11:09 pm
  #174  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by caretaker View Post
You're wrong, very wrong but you might learn and understand someday. This is an account of what happened 140 years ago The story of Treaty 6
40 years ago I accompanied a friend who was a CBC Radio technician to Beardy's Reserve near Duck Lake, Sask so the host and producer of a native themed radio program could cover the 100th anniversary of the signing of Treaty 6. Justice Emmet Hall represented the Queen, John Munro (Minister of Health) and Iona Campagnolo (Minister of Indian Affairs) represented the Government of Canada and special guest dignitary former Prime Minister John G. Diefenbaker was there as well. I got to talk with Diefenbaker for about half an hour before his security detail arrived late and looking very embarrassed. There was a table set up under an awning covered with the treaty medals that would be given to the assembled chiefs. Several hundred yards away down a slight incline on the prairie grass was a white tipi set up for the chiefs to confer in before the ceremony was to begin. They walked up to it and filed in and the radio producer said to my friend "Do you think you could pick anything up from down there?" He put on his headphones, switched on his tape recorder and aimed the big shotgun microphone at the tipi. Until then it had been a calm morning but suddenly the wind came up a bit. About 15 or so minutes later the wind ceased, the flaps of the tipi opened, the chiefs emerged and filed up the hill to where we were assembled. I can't remember everything about what was said before they began receiving their treaty medals in turn and shaking hands but people started walking among the dignitaries handing out pieces of paper, but being careful not to hand them to the government representatives. They were copies of Rod King's (Okemow, chief of the Lucky Man band) speech. Then it was his turn to receive his medal and he turned the world upside down. This part I remember vividly even though it was nearly 40 years ago.
Chief Okemow's Speech
I can hear the words "a litany of broken promises" as if he were still standing in front of me.
When we played the tape back all you could hear between the time they entered the tipi and the moment they emerged was the wind rustling through the trees. The souvenir t-shirt I bought that day was my favourite and I wore it until you could see through it.
Sorry, I don't see where I am "very wrong". I've read the historical account of Treaty 6 and the chief's speech. I accept that the FN were subjugated, and the confusion or subterfuge in the treaty does not surprise me. I don't condone it, but equally, I don't think there is any point in the FN demanding rights or reparations on a scale unimaginable at the time.

Let's face it, wars happen. Territory is seized, opponents are left worse off. Canada was fortunate in that neither the settlers or Indians resorted to (much) armed conflict and could agree to cohabit the vast land in some way. The buffalo were declining, and to some extent the Indians, like tribal people everywhere were faced with modernisation. As I said, reserves were not / are not perfect, and of course there is an indignity and moral failure in confining the FN to a small patch of what should be their own land, but, that is what happened. That was the 'compromise' so to speak, and from what we can see they have not entirely thrived in this situation.

Too many people blame the European settlers (invaders for the avoidance of doubt) for all the FN's problems. I am sceptical of this, I think the FN themselves bear some of the responsibility. Nunavut is, I suppose a step in the right direction, and Canada does seem to bend over backwards to make amends and to support it's infigenous people, so with time perhaps some more culture can be captured/developed, but ultimately the world moves on. It modernises and homogenises and fixating on misunderstanding or grievances of a century ago will not do anyone any good.

Even in the forty years since you were at that ceremony (and I don't blame the chief for his calling out of tokenism) so much has changed in society and the world. I don't really understand what you point you were trying to get across?

Last edited by Shard; Apr 29th 2015 at 11:11 pm.
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Old Apr 29th 2015, 11:44 pm
  #175  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Sorry, I don't see where I am "very wrong". I've read the historical account of Treaty 6 and the chief's speech. I accept that the FN were subjugated, and the confusion or subterfuge in the treaty does not surprise me. I don't condone it, but equally, I don't think there is any point in the FN demanding rights or reparations on a scale unimaginable at the time.

Let's face it, wars happen. Territory is seized, opponents are left worse off. Canada was fortunate in that neither the settlers or Indians resorted to (much) armed conflict and could agree to cohabit the vast land in some way. The buffalo were declining, and to some extent the Indians, like tribal people everywhere were faced with modernisation. As I said, reserves were not / are not perfect, and of course there is an indignity and moral failure in confining the FN to a small patch of what should be their own land, but, that is what happened. That was the 'compromise' so to speak, and from what we can see they have not entirely thrived in this situation.

Too many people blame the European settlers (invaders for the avoidance of doubt) for all the FN's problems. I am sceptical of this, I think the FN themselves bear some of the responsibility. Nunavut is, I suppose a step in the right direction, and Canada does seem to bend over backwards to make amends and to support it's infigenous people, so with time perhaps some more culture can be captured/developed, but ultimately the world moves on. It modernises and homogenises and fixating on misunderstanding or grievances of a century ago will not do anyone any good.

Even in the forty years since you were at that ceremony (and I don't blame the chief for his calling out of tokenism) so much has changed in society and the world. I don't really understand what you point you were trying to get across?
That you don't believe the role of Chief is to ensure the well-being of his or her band. That's what you aren't getting. First Nations are a government unto themselves, Chiefs are like mayors and their heads of state are the leaders of Assembly of First Nations and other native bodies. That's why they were concerned about the constitition being repatriated in '82; the deal they made with Britain was shifted to someone else. For instance what if Quebec separated? There would be an Indian war and the Indians would be as well armed as the Surete. From where you sit First Nations sovereignty may seem like an anachronistic concept but their system of government has been constant throughout the years since colonisation and remains intact. When Ovide Mercredi was elected head of the AFN a reporter asked him if he intended to restructure the Indian Act and he laughed at him. He said "I want to abolish the Indian Act".

Last edited by caretaker; Apr 29th 2015 at 11:56 pm. Reason: To add who keeps the Gateway Pipeline from poisoning their land, certainly not the Conservative government.
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Old Apr 29th 2015, 11:59 pm
  #176  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by caretaker View Post
That you don't believe the role of Chief is to ensure the well-being of his or her band. That's what you aren't getting. First Nations are a government unto themselves, Chiefs are like mayors and their heads of state are the leaders of Assembly of First Nations and other native bodies. That's why they were concerned about the constitition being repatriated in '82; the deal they made with Britain was shifted to someone else. For instance what if Quebec separated? There would be an Indian war and the Indians would be as well armed as the Surete. From where you sit First Nations sovereignty may seem like an anachronistic concept but their system of government has been constant throughout the years since colonisation and remains intact. When Ovide Mercredi was elected head of the AFN a reporter asked him if he intended to restructure the Indian Act and he laughed at him. He said "I want to abolish the Indian Act".
What does that even mean? So what if the Chief is like a mayor and the FN are a government to themselves. Their "citizens" are not doing (proportionally) well are they. My point is that it's a failed system and has little future. For one thing, it's unabashedly, ethnically, racist. I am pleased Ovide Mercredi (not that I know him) has said he want's to abolish the Indian Act. It's a good idea. In the long run they need to be non-status Canadians. No more no less. We can all be proud of their heritage and culture.
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Old Apr 30th 2015, 12:06 am
  #177  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
What does that even mean? So what if the Chief is like a mayor and the FN are a government to themselves. Their "citizens" are not doing (proportionally) well are they. My point is that it's a failed system and has little future. For one thing, it's unabashedly, ethnically, racist. I am pleased Ovide Mercredi (not that I know him) has said he want's to abolish the Indian Act. It's a good idea. In the long run they need to be non-status Canadians. No more no less. We can all be proud of their heritage and culture.
I don't think you can.
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Old Apr 30th 2015, 12:09 am
  #178  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

No, obviously not part of the in-group.
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Old Apr 30th 2015, 3:57 am
  #179  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Time for some Rumi:

Only Breath

Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu
Buddhist, sufi, or zen. Not any religion

or cultural system. I am not from the East
or the West, not out of the ocean or up

from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not
composed of elements at all. I do not exist,

am not an entity in this world or in the next,
did not descend from Adam and Eve or any

origin story. My place is placeless, a trace
of the traceless. Neither body or soul.

I belong to the beloved, have seen the two
worlds as one and that one call to and know,

first, last, outer, inner, only that
breath breathing human being.

From Essential Rumi
by Coleman Barks
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Old Apr 30th 2015, 3:10 pm
  #180  
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Default Re: Racist Employers

Originally Posted by caretaker View Post
That you don't believe the role of Chief is to ensure the well-being of his or her band. That's what you aren't getting. First Nations are a government unto themselves, Chiefs are like mayors and their heads of state are the leaders of Assembly of First Nations and other native bodies. That's why they were concerned about the constitition being repatriated in '82; the deal they made with Britain was shifted to someone else. For instance what if Quebec separated? There would be an Indian war and the Indians would be as well armed as the Surete. From where you sit First Nations sovereignty may seem like an anachronistic concept but their system of government has been constant throughout the years since colonisation and remains intact. When Ovide Mercredi was elected head of the AFN a reporter asked him if he intended to restructure the Indian Act and he laughed at him. He said "I want to abolish the Indian Act".
It may well be the role of the Chief to ensure the well-being of the band. But the evidence is not very strong that they are all fulfilling that role effectively. There are too many stories of financial mismanagement, of funds going missing or being appropriated for other things, of a general lack of transparency in fiscal and other governance matters. Too many FN families are still living in substandard housing, despite resources being made available for maintenance, renovations and new dwellings.

Of course, the history of oppression and ill-treatment is there. Compulsory "enfranchisement" is a vile concept designed only to belittle and denigrate those living on reserve lands, and ended up being the justification for much of the Residential Schools horror. Aboriginal Canadians have been royally screwed over ever since the establishment of the first European permanent trading posts, before anyone ever thought of Canada as a nation state. And Government (British, and subsequently Canadian) policies have been consistently unhelpful. But to blame absolutely every ill to befall FN communities on the White Man is equally unhelpful.

Where I agree with Shard is that arguing the minutiae of centuries-old treaty terms is not the right way to address today's issues. The "traditional way of life" disappeared long ago: that was probably doomed from the moment the first firearm was traded for furs, and has been consistently eroded with every introduction of new technology. A great way to move the entire discussion forward would be a realisation, on all sides, that reaching back for a past that has gone forever is bound to end in failure, and that searching for an anachronism is pointless.

Abolishing the Indian Act is a noble aim. But that Act is only the basis for interpretation of treaties, prior and subsequent, not to mention the conflicting interpretations of the 1763 Royal Proclamation. Many people, on both sides of the issue, have tried and failed to repeal or substantially amend the Act in the past. If Mercredi can achieve what so many others have not, he will have done well.
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