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Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Old May 23rd 2021, 7:14 pm
  #961  
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
I share that opinion. The Canadian government's obsession with quarantine is disproportionate, especially from low risk countries. Everybody who is fully vaccinated with the Pfizer, Moderna or Astra Zeneca vaccine and the last dose was administered at least 2 weeks ago should be able to enter Canada without any issues. Visiting a senior / elderly care home is easier than returning to Canada.

I have not given up hope that that one day the pressure on the Canadian government will be there to re-open the country, especially when there is comparison with the US and the argument "Why can US Americans travel, and Canadians can't?"

The Canadian government should rather worry about the opioid crisis and "zero drugs" than "zero Covid" if they want a science based approach. At least against Covid, we do have a vaccine which actually does work.
Couldn't agree more👍
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Old May 23rd 2021, 8:30 pm
  #962  
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by Revin Kevin
Couldn't agree more👍
The thing is, that people are getting vaccinated for that very reason, that they can return to a normal life again. First and foremost that's travel, not a visit to the local bowling alley, gambling arenas or the odd museum or getting drunk in crowds.

I don't really have to travel to India, Brazil or China or various parts of Africa at this point, however quarantine free travel between Canada, the US and the EU is not too much to ask or to demand, especially of vaccination rates are getting increasingly similar.

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Old May 23rd 2021, 9:29 pm
  #963  
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
I share that opinion. The Canadian government's obsession with quarantine is disproportionate
It's interesting that you make comparisons between USA responses to the virus and those of Canada. Here's another comparison.
Cases per million population//deaths per million
USA - 101,868 // 1815
Canada - 35,701 // 663

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
I don't really have to travel to India, Brazil or China or various parts of Africa at this point...
If that's about the variants, correct, you don't need to travel to those places to encounter them. You can do that without travelling. Probably much less likely to encounter the variants by not travelling than by travelling so a few precautions going about daily business like masks, distancing etc (until more known about transmission once vaccinated etc) and a few more or different precautions while travelling (if you really can't avoid it) would seem entirely proportionate.
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Old May 23rd 2021, 10:03 pm
  #964  
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by BristolUK
It's interesting that you make comparisons between USA responses to the virus and those of Canada. Here's another comparison.
Cases per million population//deaths per million
USA - 101,868 // 1815
Canada - 35,701 // 663


If that's about the variants, correct, you don't need to travel to those places to encounter them. You can do that without travelling. Probably much less likely to encounter the variants by not travelling than by travelling so a few precautions going about daily business like masks, distancing etc (until more known about transmission once vaccinated etc) and a few more or different precautions while travelling (if you really can't avoid it) would seem entirely proportionate.

The case and death comparison is probably relating to the timeframe when vaccine uptake was not as it is today. The US as well as the UK has had one of the highest death rates, but in the end, also the fastest vaccination efforts, apart from Israel.

New variants will always come up and possibly even daily. In order for Canada to keep them out, the country would have to wall herself off from the rest of the world, - not even letting truck drivers, medical personnel and other deemed essential in. Even North Korea wasn't able to contain the virus, at least that's what we know about North Korea. And Australia and NZ was only able to do so that import and export trade via a container ship would take 3 to 4 weeks if not longer, thus if the crew is isolated, it's already part of the quarantine in some way shape or form.

Theoretically it's only about precautions. You could travel from Tierra del Fuego all the way to Canada as long as you keep a distance of 2 or 3 meters or more and never catch the virus. However no government in the world would believe you would actually be doing that..... :-)

It's that "you could" and "you still could" attitude. However it's totally contra-productive even wrong to have this approach when you ideally want a very large majority of the population vaccinated. Yes, you still could, but that minimal risk is negligible. Even vaccinating with Astra Zeneca is better than no vaccination, as the results outweigh the risk by far. Nothing is ever going to be 100% or "zero- something".

Canadians need to be vaccinated in order to allow free movement within the country and quarantine free entry into the country, go back to the normal lives we were used to, and the economy back to strong growth.
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Old May 23rd 2021, 10:04 pm
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by BristolUK
If that's about the variants, correct, you don't need to travel to those places to encounter them. You can do that without travelling. Probably much less likely to encounter the variants by not travelling than by travelling so a few precautions going about daily business like masks, distancing etc (until more known about transmission once vaccinated etc) and a few more or different precautions while travelling (if you really can't avoid it) would seem entirely proportionate.
As someone in the UK, I believe more quarantine and stricter quarantine is needed - not less and this is for the foreseeable future.

Take the Indian variant as an example - Whilst I cant remember the exact dates, it was found both in the UK and Canada at a similar time, Canada had a handful of cases from memory as did the UK. However without quarantine the Indian variant is now rife in the UK (even with high vaccination rates), Germany has banned flights from the UK, there is talk of a triple mutant variant found in Yorkshire (one of the epicentres for the Indian variant in the UK).

Meanwhile I can't find a story giving any update of numbers in Canada - so assuming its been squished out, was found during hotel quarantine and carefully monitored.

The only thing I think can/should really change as it stands is the fact that once you do your second test, I don't see the value in waiting till day 13.5 to give you your result, once that is negative see no point in prolonging your stay inside.





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Old May 23rd 2021, 10:12 pm
  #966  
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
The case and death comparison is probably relating to the timeframe when vaccine uptake was not as it is today.
Absolutely. But the point is that when making comparisons you can't just cherry pick a favourable one and ignore others.
The US as well as the UK has had one of the highest death rates, but in the end, also the fastest vaccination efforts, apart from Israel.
Yep. And with the fastest vaccination rates there is still an enormous difference in the two sets of figures.
New variants will always come up and possibly even daily. In order for Canada to keep them out, the country would have to wall herself off from the rest of the world, - not even letting truck drivers, medical personnel and other deemed essential in.
And the latter part of that has not been prevented while you speak as if it has been.
It's that "you could" and "you still could" attitude.
Sounds like good advice until it can be replaced with a definitive "you can't" or, at least, a highly unlikely.
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Old May 23rd 2021, 10:16 pm
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
I share that opinion. The Canadian government's obsession with quarantine is disproportionate, especially from low risk countries. Everybody who is fully vaccinated with the Pfizer, Moderna or Astra Zeneca vaccine and the last dose was administered at least 2 weeks ago should be able to enter Canada without any issues. Visiting a senior / elderly care home is easier than returning to Canada.

I have not given up hope that that one day the pressure on the Canadian government will be there to re-open the country, especially when there is comparison with the US and the argument "Why can US Americans travel, and Canadians can't?"

The Canadian government should rather worry about the opioid crisis and "zero drugs" than "zero Covid" if they want a science based approach. At least against Covid, we do have a vaccine which actually does work.
Unfortunately
The vaccine does not stop you from catching Covid19
The vaccine does not stop you from passing on Covid19

It is hoped/expected that the vaccine will reduce the likelihood of you becoming dangerously ill and needing to be in ICU.

As confirmed by scientists/medical specialists and the Government of Canada.

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Old May 23rd 2021, 11:34 pm
  #968  
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

It's not the first time Siouxie and myself disagreed on something.
Originally Posted by Siouxie
Unfortunately
The vaccine does not stop you from catching Covid19
Unfortunately that is wrong. It's also exactly those opinions which are misleading the public.
Originally Posted by Siouxie
The vaccine does not stop you from passing on Covid19
It's unlikely to highly unlikely.

Ultimately Covid 19 will be like the flu as a worsted case scenario, that is if vaccine uptake is very high in the population.

If you want to doubt the effectiveness of the vaccines, I would kindly ask you to start a separate thread.

In the case the mRNA vaccines this is completely unjustified, even an insult to the scientific community. Both the speed of development as well as the effectiveness are unparalleled in history.

Last edited by OrangeMango; May 23rd 2021 at 11:45 pm.
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Old May 24th 2021, 12:02 am
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
If you want to doubt the effectiveness of the vaccines, I would kindly ask you to start a separate thread.
I think you need to back up and read properly. The effectiveness of the vaccines has not been doubted.
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Old May 24th 2021, 9:32 am
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by BristolUK
I think you need to back up and read properly. The effectiveness of the vaccines has not been doubted.
It bothers me if somebody doubts the effectiveness of the vaccine, especially in light that it has been proven 95% effective. Other vaccines don't have that effectiveness.

The statement of this user is sadly pretty straight.

Doubt to the vaccine is only fuel to the ones who are in favour of the quarantine. Doubt to the effectiveness of the vaccine also is fuel to the ones who are hesitant or sceptical to the shot.

I am desperately looking to return to Canada without quarantine. At this point I am wondering, if that will be possible at all this year? I am certainly not the only one.
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Old May 24th 2021, 12:55 pm
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

"If you’ve been fully vaccinated:
  • You can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic.
  • You can resume activities without wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.
  • If you travel in the United States, you do not need to get tested before or after travel or self-quarantine after travel.
  • You need to pay close attention to the situation at your international destination before traveling outside the United States.
    • You do NOT need to get tested before leaving the United States unless your destination requires it.
    • You still need to show a negative test result or documentation of recovery from COVID-19 beforeboarding an international flight to the United States.
    • You should still get tested 3-5 days after international travel.
    • You do NOT need to self-quarantine after arriving in the United States


https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...accinated.html

The US CDC is known for being extremely conservative and cautious yet it is not recommending quarantine after travel for fully vaccinated Americans.
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Old May 24th 2021, 12:59 pm
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
It bothers me if somebody doubts the effectiveness of the vaccine, especially in light that it has been proven 95% effective. Other vaccines don't have that effectiveness.

The statement of this user is sadly pretty straight.

Doubt to the vaccine is only fuel to the ones who are in favour of the quarantine. Doubt to the effectiveness of the vaccine also is fuel to the ones who are hesitant or sceptical to the shot.

I am desperately looking to return to Canada without quarantine. At this point I am wondering, if that will be possible at all this year? I am certainly not the only one.
+1

Honestly the Canadian governments (federal and provincial) stubborn attitude towards keeping covid restrictions and quarantine in place is having me re-think emigrating to another country where they are embracing the vaccine and returning to normal rather then doubting it. I have not been impressed with Canada's pandemic response and heavy handed restrictions at all, and with the way things are going here in Canada it feels like we will never reach 2019 normal, whereas countries like the UK, US, and Malta are getting a lot closer.
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Old May 24th 2021, 2:54 pm
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
It bothers me if somebody doubts the effectiveness of the vaccine, especially in light that it has been proven 95% effective.
As I said earlier, The effectiveness of the vaccines has not been doubted.

I think you have an expectation that is not appropriate for the vaccine and when someone points out the vaccine is not known to fill that expectation - for the simple reason that's not what the vaccine is for - you seem to be interpreting that as doubting its effectiveness or usefulness.

Siouxie can answer for herself on your disagreement but in another thread you made the claim that it had been "scientifically proven that one is immune with the vaccine and you can't pass it on."
I asked you for a link because this is still unknown - although we're all hopeful it turns out to be the case. You couldn't give one but you did give the name of someone who would apparently confirm your statement. Someone else joined in to say that Pfizer didn't agree with you.

I found a statement from your source that confirmed what had been said by others, namely that people who have been immunized rarely fall seriously ill and are significantly less likely to transmit the virus to others.
So people who have been immunised still fall ill - just less likely to be seriously ill - and if infected they are less likely to pass it on than if they had not been vaccinated. Less likely isn't the same as not at all which is what you appear to be (wrongly) claiming.

Your man, in that same statement I quoted, also said that "50-60% of the population will have received the vaccine" by the end of June, at which point any easing of pandemic restrictions would affect a broad swath of the population" and further said "Europe could reach herd immunity "in July, latest by August," with a further comment that "data from people who have received the vaccine show that the immune response gets weaker over time, and a third shot will likely be required."

It's really not in line with your claims is it.





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Old May 24th 2021, 3:28 pm
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
It bothers me if somebody doubts the effectiveness of the vaccine, especially in light that it has been proven 95% effective. Other vaccines don't have that effectiveness.

The statement of this user is sadly pretty straight.

Doubt to the vaccine is only fuel to the ones who are in favour of the quarantine. Doubt to the effectiveness of the vaccine also is fuel to the ones who are hesitant or sceptical to the shot.

I am desperately looking to return to Canada without quarantine. At this point I am wondering, if that will be possible at all this year? I am certainly not the only one.
With respect, I suggest you read the research that has been undertaken which categorically states that while it is less likely to catch or pass on Covid once fully vaccinated it's still possible - but that if you do catch it you are less likely to become seriously ill (which is a good enough reason to get it, in itself). I'm not anti vaccine nor pro quarantine unless necessary

The data suggest that “it’s much harder for vaccinated people to get infected, but don’t think for one second that they cannot get infected,” said Paul Duprex, director of the Center for Vaccine Research at the University of Pittsburgh.
It bothers me when someone thinks the vaccine is the answer to everything and that once vaccinated they have a pass to do whatever they choose - which is not the case at all, unforunately - but I wish it was! (Something you appear eager to disbelieve).

A growing body of evidence suggests that fully vaccinated people are less likely to have asymptomatic infection and potentially less likely to transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others. However, further investigation is ongoing.

The risks of SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Vaccinated people could potentially still get COVID-19 and spread it to others.
Can we stop taking precautions after being vaccinated? Vaccination protects you from getting seriously ill and dying from COVID-19. For the first fourteen days after getting a vaccination, you do not have significant levels of protection, then it increases gradually. For a single dose vaccine, immunity will generally occur two weeks after vaccination. For two-dose vaccines, both doses are needed to achieve the highest level of immunity possible.

While a COVID-19 vaccine will protect you from serious illness and death, we still don’t know the extent to which it keeps you from being infected and passing the virus on to others. To help keep others safe, continue to maintain at least a 1-metre distance from others, cover a cough or sneeze in your elbow, clean your hands frequently and wear a mask, particularly in enclosed, crowded or poorly ventilated spaces. Always follow guidance from local authorities based on the situation and risk where you live.
(and many many more official websites that state the same thing.. even the CDC - as reported in the NY Times.. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/h...-walensky.html

I hope you manage to get home to Canada soon... one way or another. Fingers crossed for you!

Last edited by Siouxie; May 24th 2021 at 3:51 pm. Reason: sp
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Old May 24th 2021, 10:33 pm
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Default Re: Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.

Everything I have read and heard, from doctors, scientists and virologists to the various research papers and pre-prints, makes me believe that we will still need to take care after getting vaccinated. That the vaccine will not cure us or protect us permanently, that we could still get sick albeit to a much milder extent, and that we cold still possibly pass on the virus to others.

There will never be 100% vaccination rates, quite simply because there are people who are sincerely against vaccinations (hence why we keep getting measles outbreaks), and there are people who cannot receive the vaccine and have to depend on the rest of us to be vaccinated to protect them.

My current thought is that it may be next year before we know how much travel is possible, because different countries are at different levels of vaccination so there are still "pools of covid-19 and its variants" in existence or developing. There are currently some suggestions that a 4th wave might be developing.

I'm beginning to doubt that we ourselves will be able to travel to NS for next Christmas, let alone travel safely without quarantine to another country.

I also think that it is quite possible that a covid vaccine booster shot will become necessary, as the flu vaccine is currently "new" every year. It seems to form variants just as the flu virus does ............ each year the scientists have to produce a new vaccine to respond to new variants of the flu. They almost never quite succeed, which is why we can still catch flu but in a milder form.

But those are only my thoughts .......... these vaccines have not been in use long enough for the necessary long-range testing to be done. These vaccines came into use after much less testing than any other vaccine we have. They were tested for effectiveness and safety in use.

Usually vaccines have been tested for years before release, and that testing includes long range testing for effectiveness, whether booster shots need to be administered and if so, how often.

I'm not concerned about long-term effects of the vaccine .......... but we are the test subjects for the long-term effectiveness of 2 shots being sufficient vs booster shots every year, every 5 years, every 10 years, or never. It will be a long series of changing suggestions and ideas before any of the covid vaccines are as well documented as the flu vaccine, smallpox, measles, etc.

I was one of the children who had the polio vaccine when it was first released back in the 50s ........ we needed 3 shots within a short period of time for that one.

I'm certainly not pinning my hopes on taking our usual Christmas trip

At least, Canada will be in a better position to produce a vaccine in this country after the money that has been poured into building facilities in Montreal and one other (Ontario??) to manufacture the covid vaccine under license and also to research new vaccines for covid or another yet-to-arrive virus.. This was the major problem this time, the only facility that might have been capable of reno to the lab safety standard required was shut down by Stephen Harper years ago "because it wasn't needed".
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