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-   -   Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions. (https://britishexpats.com/forum/canada-56/quarantine-covid-19-discussions-933679/)

OrangeMango Jul 8th 2020 9:16 am

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by MarylandNed (Post 12878216)
. We could take the risk that the quarantine period actually ends Aug 31st but the way the US is handling this pandemic doesn't give me confidence that Canada won't extend it for people travelling from the US.

The problem is that Canadian law makers are solely focusing only on the US when it comes to travel restrictions and quarantine and the infection rate in the US are too high. Thus the quarantine is always discussed in the context of the US rates, not in context of Irish rates, or German rates. The other problem is that Canadian law makers also seems to totally disregard testing. Also the consideration of possible air bridges to countries where there are lower infectionsrrates than in Canada is a total no go for Canadian politics.

Sadly, I think that the quarantine period won't end on Aug 31st. It might go on for another full year.

DigitalGhost Jul 8th 2020 10:08 am

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 12878416)
The problem is that Canadian law makers are solely focusing only on the US when it comes to travel restrictions and quarantine and the infection rate in the US are too high. Thus the quarantine is always discussed in the context of the US rates, not in context of Irish rates, or German rates. The other problem is that Canadian law makers also seems to totally disregard testing. Also the consideration of possible air bridges to countries where there are lower infectionsrrates than in Canada is a total no go for Canadian politics.

Sadly, I think that the quarantine period won't end on Aug 31st. It might go on for another full year.

Unfortunately you could be right and I said something very similar in the other Maple Leaf thread yesterday.The situation in Canada looks far more like Europe atm however Canada is being held back by the attitude of its more powerful southern neighbour and a reluctance in the Canadian government to upset the Trump administration. It's a shame as well because it's going to wind up costing the Canadian economy dearly and largely, in my opinion, unnecessarily. Air Canada, WestJet and Transat are all re-opening their passenger routes between Canada and Europe this month and new routes are appearing with Middle Eastern airlines however the numbers of people eligible to use them are low and the mandatory 14 day quarantine greeting people at the Canadian end is also going to be a deterrent.

At the very least they could just follow the example of Dubai and a few places in Europe who will exemplify people from the quarantine period as long as they are willing to take a test upon arrival, obviously at the passenger's expense.

Twitcher1958 Jul 8th 2020 11:21 am

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12878432)
At the very least they could just follow the example of Dubai and a few places in Europe who will exemplify people from the quarantine period as long as they are willing to take a test upon arrival, obviously at the passenger's expense.

We return on Sunday from Austria and would gladly pay rather than quarantine for two weeks. It’s been acceptable here in Vienna since mid May and frustrating that the Canadian government don’t seem to be considering it.

DigitalGhost Jul 8th 2020 11:24 am

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by Twitcher1958 (Post 12878452)
We return on Sunday from Austria and would gladly pay rather than quarantine for two weeks. It’s been acceptable here in Vienna since mid May and frustrating that the Canadian government don’t seem to be considering it.

I think most rational people would and tbh it would be safer and easier to manage all round since it's a way of knowing for sure that someone isn't bringing the virus with them. Just think of the money it could save as well if people could return and then immediately get the all clear to go back to work and rejoin the economy etc.

OrangeMango Jul 8th 2020 11:27 am

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12878432)
Unfortunately you could be right and I said something very similar in the other Maple Leaf thread yesterday.The situation in Canada looks far more like Europe atm however Canada is being held back by the attitude of its more powerful southern neighbour and a reluctance in the Canadian government to upset the Trump administration. It's a shame as well because it's going to wind up costing the Canadian economy dearly and largely, in my opinion, unnecessarily. Air Canada, WestJet and Transat are all re-opening their passenger routes between Canada and Europe this month and new routes are appearing with Middle Eastern airlines however the numbers of people eligible to use them are low and the mandatory 14 day quarantine greeting people at the Canadian end is also going to be a deterrent.

At the very least they could just follow the example of Dubai and a few places in Europe who will exemplify people from the quarantine period as long as they are willing to take a test upon arrival, obviously at the passenger's expense.

These are exactly my words. However the word "flexibility" is sadly not part of politics these days, - also not in Canada. The Trump administration in the US is an entirely different and bigger problem. Countries like Austria offer testing at the airport, same offer is at Frankfurt Rhein-Main airport. There is also currently no evidence that the few people arriving from Canada into Austria or Germany are bringing in Covid19.

Also I don't understand why the tax payers are to be bailing out the airlines in Canada, and airlines resuming flights to Europe, whilst the quarantine at an airport hotel is also being paid for by the Canadian tax payer, and at the same time, the price of testing would be way cheaper.

I am also suspecting ( looking at various expatriate Canadian facebook usergroups) that Canadians returning are often breaking the 14 day quarantine requirement and policing of this requirement is also very very difficult. In the Republic of Ireland they at least publicly admitted to not being able to police this requirement.

DigitalGhost Jul 8th 2020 11:40 am

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 12878457)

I am also suspecting ( looking at various expatriate Canadian facebook usergroups) that Canadians returning are often breaking the 14 day quarantine requirement and policing of this requirement is also very very difficult. In the Republic of Ireland they at least publicly admitted to not being able to police this requirement.

Of course they are, it's bound to happen in a nation of immigrants and people who routinely move from small towns to the big cities for work and opportunity and don't have a local support network where they live.

Introducing a test on arrival option, even if it's just for returning Canadians and residents could create jobs, mitigate risk and the save the country money in the long run. Let's face it, nobody is going to jail for 6 months for breaching quarantine. It would cost Canada more than its worth to keep someone in the prison system for a misdemeanour offence like that and likewise handing down large fines, especially on non-resident foreigners, is also a costly and awkward business.

OrangeMango Jul 8th 2020 12:09 pm

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12878464)
Of course they are, it's bound to happen in a nation of immigrants and people who routinely move from small towns to the big cities for work and opportunity and don't have a local support network where they live.

Introducing a test on arrival option, even if it's just for returning Canadians and residents could create jobs, mitigate risk and the save the country money in the long run. Let's face it, nobody is going to jail for 6 months for breaching quarantine. It would cost Canada more than its worth to keep someone in the prison system for a misdemeanour offence like that likewise handing down large fines, especially on non-resident foreigners, is also a costly and awkward business.

I strongly agree with your point. They should rather focus on testing and making apps on cell phones mandatory to allow tracing than imposing an unenforceable law which is hard to police and easy to break. And then there is the economic impact of a 14 day isolation, plus the Canadian deficit for this year....

The main problem is Trump himself and the state of Covid 19 infections in the US.

Suppose there is one single Canadian returning to Canada from the US and not observing his quarantine obligation and the blame is on all travellers, also if they are arriving from European countries with way lower infections.

DigitalGhost Jul 8th 2020 12:13 pm

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 12878477)

The main problem is Trump himself and the state of Covid 19 infections in the US.

And I think this is ultimately what it boils down to. Trudeau's government is currently trying to protect the Canadian border from an influx without pissing off an entirely unreasonable, erratic and frankly irresponsible government in Washington.

OrangeMango Jul 8th 2020 1:00 pm

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12878479)
And I think this is ultimately what it boils down to. Trudeau's government is currently trying to protect the Canadian border from an influx without pissing off an entirely unreasonable, erratic and frankly irresponsible government in Washington.

I think they should make the quarantine only an obligation for arrivals from countries with higher or very high infection rates. This would include the UK, the US, Brazil, Russia and others and would also be properly policed and enforced. The list of these countries would be updated regularly. Arrivals from other countries could be exempt from this regulation, however an app on an cell phone should be mandatory.

The current rules are just another "illegal but not enforced" scenario, just like the cannabis thing used to be.

DigitalGhost Jul 8th 2020 1:04 pm

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 12878505)
I think they should make the quarantine only an obligation for arrivals from countries with higher or very high infection rates. This would include the UK, the US, Brazil, Russia and others and would also be properly policed and enforced. The list of these countries would be updated regularly. Arrivals from other countries could be exempt from this regulation, however an app on an cell phone should be mandatory.

The current rules are just another "illegal but not enforced" scenario, just like the cannabis thing used to be.

I mean other than recruiting an army of secret police to follow and monitor every arrival, how can they possibly enforce the current law? I think that's why most of the media reports have been about idiots who have crossed the US/CA border "en route to Alaska" and then have been seen swanning about tourist hot spots and in restaurants, basically asking for trouble.

I think the UK and Canada are pretty much on par at this point. Ontario alone confirmed 321 yesterday whereas the UK total was 581. Obviously there are other factors to consider and the UK death numbers are larger but I'm not sure how much of a positive impact the total border closure and is procedures for anyone not from the US are actually having.

OrangeMango Jul 8th 2020 1:27 pm

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12878506)
I mean other than recruiting an army of secret police to follow and monitor every arrival, how can they possibly enforce the current law? I think that's why most of the media reports have been about idiots who have crossed the US/CA border "en route to Alaska" and then have been seen swanning about tourist hot spots and in restaurants, basically asking for trouble.

I think these laws can only be adhered to within certain reasoning. This reasoning only comes with the understanding of the general public and the general public playing along.... Also that army of secret police also costs a bit of money which might be difficult to raise considering Canada's mounting deficit. Strict measures between the US/CA border would certainly be within this reason. I was also not aware of this "en route to Alaska" excuse to visit Canada from the US and never make it to Alaska.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12878506)
I think the UK and Canada are pretty much on par at this point. Ontario alone confirmed 321 yesterday whereas the UK total was 581. Obviously there are other factors to consider and the UK death numbers are larger but I'm not sure how much of a positive impact the total border closure and is procedures for anyone not from the US are actually having.

I am not certain if the UK should be on a list of "air bridges" when it comes to quarantine free arrivals into Canada. However other countries, like Germany, the Czech, the Slovak republics, and Austria could be. Today's technology would also be able to offer solutions to check, whether one has really spent the last 14 days in one of these countries. One doesn't need more secret police to do that, IT technology can solve this problem with ease....

DigitalGhost Jul 8th 2020 3:08 pm

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 12878516)
I am not certain if the UK should be on a list of "air bridges" when it comes to quarantine free arrivals into Canada. However other countries, like Germany, the Czech, the Slovak republics, and Austria could be. Today's technology would also be able to offer solutions to check, whether one has really spent the last 14 days in one of these countries. One doesn't need more secret police to do that, IT technology can solve this problem with ease....

You cannot track people's movements within a country using IT. China comes close to doing this but it isn't entirely flawless and would break multiple human rights and privacy laws.if an attempt was made to inflict it upon innocent people in a western country.

If it was entirely possible then electronic tagging in law enforcement would have no need to exist.

OrangeMango Jul 8th 2020 3:30 pm

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12878563)
You cannot track people's movements within a country using IT. China comes close to doing this but it isn't entirely flawless and would break multiple human rights and privacy laws.if an attempt was made to inflict it upon innocent people in a western country.

If it was entirely possible then electronic tagging in law enforcement would have no need to exist.

I am actually surprised that the CBSA doesn't insist on some kind of electronic tagging for all Canadians entering the country. They will however have to think about policing the quarantine period, or offer quarantine free air bridges to some countries, whilst focusing on enforcing the quarantine on entries from the other higher infected countries.

DigitalGhost Jul 8th 2020 3:32 pm

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 12878568)
I am actually surprised that the CBSA doesn't insist on some kind of electronic tagging for all Canadians entering the country.

That would be a massive contravention of basic human rights. Countries aren't even allowed to tag refugees unless they have been refused status and are on release pending removal. Even the US doesn't electronically tag innocent people.

Novocastrian Jul 8th 2020 3:42 pm

Quarantine for COVID 19 discussions.
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12878453)
I think most rational people would and tbh it would be safer and easier to manage all round since it's a way of knowing for sure that someone isn't bringing the virus with them. Just think of the money it could save as well if people could return and then immediately get the all clear to go back to work and rejoin the economy etc.

That's not as clear as you think. I imagine that one of the most probable times and places to acquire the virus is during a transatlantic flight. A test upon landing would be about 5 days too soon.


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