Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Sep 9th 2010, 11:00 am
#151
Slob
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: Ottineau
Posts: 6,342
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
How did diabetic lesbians come into it? I'm lost as to what point you are trying to make. This is particularly bizarre "But to suggest that Johnny Montegue only got his degree because is father is the CEO of International Big Knob Inc. is bullshit." Who is suggesting that?
Anyway, my disagreement is that you seem to be painting everyone who falls under the "broke family, too broke to afford university or too broke to finish the degree" category as hand wringing whingers who are blaming other people for their misfortune. This, I disagree with and I can see no evidence on this thread that anyone has suggested it is so. This is not my experience, neither as a broke student, nor as someone who encountered broke students at work. No one was bemoaning the world as being to blame for them "not having opportunities". The fact of the matter is, if you can't afford the degree, you aren't getting to go to university.
Next you will be claiming that all working class people should be driving a Lexus. After all, they can work hard for it, they can save for it, they can get a loan for it and pay it off for the rest of their lives. In reality, not everyone wants a Lexus, or more specifically, not everyone is willing or able to accept the level of financial risk and committment to get the Lexus.
To say that laziness and lack of drive stops poor families from sending their children to university just smacks of arrogance. At least be gracious and accept that although you were able to do it, not everyone else is.
Anyway, my disagreement is that you seem to be painting everyone who falls under the "broke family, too broke to afford university or too broke to finish the degree" category as hand wringing whingers who are blaming other people for their misfortune. This, I disagree with and I can see no evidence on this thread that anyone has suggested it is so. This is not my experience, neither as a broke student, nor as someone who encountered broke students at work. No one was bemoaning the world as being to blame for them "not having opportunities". The fact of the matter is, if you can't afford the degree, you aren't getting to go to university.
Next you will be claiming that all working class people should be driving a Lexus. After all, they can work hard for it, they can save for it, they can get a loan for it and pay it off for the rest of their lives. In reality, not everyone wants a Lexus, or more specifically, not everyone is willing or able to accept the level of financial risk and committment to get the Lexus.
To say that laziness and lack of drive stops poor families from sending their children to university just smacks of arrogance. At least be gracious and accept that although you were able to do it, not everyone else is.
Sep 9th 2010, 11:39 am
#152
Slob
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: Ottineau
Posts: 6,342
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Actually dboy is correct, especially before the middle 1990s, there were many variables that helped to exclude working class kids and privilege middle class kids. The British higher educational system was founded on social differentiation, one only has to look at the Educational Act of 1944. Up until recently 'university' was seen by a majority of working class kids as an unfamiliar and foreboding place. A view that most secondary-modern schools fostered. The idea that attending university was free for all is a bit of a misnomer, in reality it was social assistance for the middle and upper classes. Its true that a few persistent and fortunate working class kids gained entry to higher education, but in 'general' the educational system institutionalized the notion that working class kids were failures and thus deserved to get their working class jobs.
Someone dissed Polytechnics. Many of the people I know that went to proper universities haven't done all that well in life. Most of the people I was at Poly with have done very nicely. A lot of us are Expats, which was probably inevitable because we were introduced to it early.
Sep 9th 2010, 11:43 am
#153
Assimilated Pauper
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Some people may not wish to live as frugally as we did during this period and, again, that is their choice. But a blanket statement that some cannot afford to go to university without those taking responsibility for the position they find themselves in is, again IMVHO, simply wrong.
No doubt you worked hard and lived frugally, you've mentioned here that you even drank home made wine, but you had a measure of good fortune. To say that everyone who considers that they cannot go to university due to financial circumstances is just failing to take responsibility smacks of pissing on the less fortunate.
Sep 9th 2010, 1:33 pm
#154
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: South of Calgary
Posts: 13,374
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
The converse position, that there are no people who are unable to go to university for financial reasons is simply wrong. You state that you had nothing but you were, presumably, also without responsibilities. Had you, for example, a disabled parent or sibling to support then your options would have been more limited, doubly so had you been in Canada.
No doubt you worked hard and lived frugally, you've mentioned here that you even drank home made wine, but you had a measure of good fortune. To say that everyone who considers that they cannot go to university due to financial circumstances is just failing to take responsibility smacks of pissing on the less fortunate.
What I am saying is that the financially stressed potential student has options: to take the money on offer knowing that they will one day have to pay it back but with the potential that, by doing so, they will increase their earning potential; to not take the money on offer, to not go to university and, as a result, to limit their earning potential. One could argue that one option is less risky than the other but has a cost/benefit trade off that may make it worthwhile.
I am not disputing that some students have an easier financial time of it than others. Oink made reference to the fact that there are 2,000,000 in full time HE in the UK. Are these all the offspring of aristocracy, or are the vast majority of them people living on a pathetic budget in the hope that the short term pain will be worth the long term gain?
Sep 9th 2010, 1:48 pm
#155
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Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
This does not apply in the case of students for whom financial matters need not be a day-to-day concern, "all of them" according to you. "not many" according to me.
Sep 9th 2010, 1:54 pm
#156
slanderer of the innocent
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 6,695
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
I'm inclined to agree with you on Secondary Moderns. I was in the first year of intake in the Comprehensive system. The school I went to had until then been a SM. The teachers thought it still was. I was in the 'bright' group. During the first term, we spend more time learning pottery, woodwork, metalwork, technical drawing etc than we did studying academic subjects. That would have continued, had a group of parents not taken action.
Someone dissed Polytechnics. Many of the people I know that went to proper universities haven't done all that well in life. Most of the people I was at Poly with have done very nicely. A lot of us are Expats, which was probably inevitable because we were introduced to it early.
Someone dissed Polytechnics. Many of the people I know that went to proper universities haven't done all that well in life. Most of the people I was at Poly with have done very nicely. A lot of us are Expats, which was probably inevitable because we were introduced to it early.
Sep 9th 2010, 1:54 pm
#157
Lowering the tone
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Here and there
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Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
If so, what makes you think that, and do you think it applies uniformly across the entire country, across all faculties etc., or did you have a specific case in mind?
Sep 9th 2010, 1:56 pm
#158
slanderer of the innocent
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Sep 9th 2010, 2:07 pm
#159
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Thread Starter
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Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
It's because I don't know people who couldn't get into their chosen course for academic reasons and know plenty who couldn't for financial reasons (or reasons of irresponsibility) that I think any individual "better educational opportunity for the children" case for moving to Canada stands or falls on how much better off the family would be financially for moving.
Sep 9th 2010, 2:12 pm
#160
Lowering the tone
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Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
No. Not in the sense of access given the academic qualifications. As best I know, a similarly talented student would have similar access in either location. One argument for Canada is that students probably have better access to US universities then students in the UK.
It's because I don't know people who couldn't get into their chosen course for academic reasons and know plenty who couldn't for financial reasons (or reasons of irresponsibility) that I think any individual "better educational opportunity for the children" case for moving to Canada stands or falls on how much better off the family would be financially for moving.
It's because I don't know people who couldn't get into their chosen course for academic reasons and know plenty who couldn't for financial reasons (or reasons of irresponsibility) that I think any individual "better educational opportunity for the children" case for moving to Canada stands or falls on how much better off the family would be financially for moving.
I did actually do a quick Google of university rankings, and found this.
I have no idea how well-regarded they may be, but the QS Rankings, which claim to rank the world's top universities, have a Top Ten stuffed full of (only) British and American universities, while Canada's top-ranked, McGill, comes in in 19th place, with only 3 more (Toronto, BC, Alberta) making it into the top 100.
Conversely, the UK has 4 in the top 10, and 19 in the top 100.
I do understand the problem of access. Apparently in the UK, some 47,000 applicants failed to get a place at University this year. Must be tough when everyone gets 6 A*s in their A Levels.
Sep 9th 2010, 2:13 pm
#161
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Runcorn, Cheshire
Posts: 98
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Hi
It's interesting hearing peoples' views, some cautious and some having optimistic approach. My O/H and I are opposite thinkers when it comes to emirgrating, he doesn't see it as I do. He wants out of this 'dump' and re-start our lives. I don't think the UK is a dump, but I do feel we've lost control of a good country. There's lots I love about the country, including wonderful parents but I don't feel secure enough for my family future. If I have to wait a bit longer to take the jump at a comfortable risk then I'll feel better for it.
At the moment I'm always thinking of ways to reduce any debt that we my incur, like I said it's tighter now to move. I've looked at different avenues and the only way forward is o/h moves first to find work and for us to move a few months later (I hate this feeling). Finding employment whilst in UK has been impossible but it might be because we haven't quite got PR in place yet. Once we land in Jan we'll have more opportunities to get re-connected with people and find out what's really out there.
We can only take the next step once PR comes, what's taking sooooooo long? Bloody joke! Only have 4 months to land!!!!!! This was on a FSW application, with meds done between Jan-April.
Angela
It's interesting hearing peoples' views, some cautious and some having optimistic approach. My O/H and I are opposite thinkers when it comes to emirgrating, he doesn't see it as I do. He wants out of this 'dump' and re-start our lives. I don't think the UK is a dump, but I do feel we've lost control of a good country. There's lots I love about the country, including wonderful parents but I don't feel secure enough for my family future. If I have to wait a bit longer to take the jump at a comfortable risk then I'll feel better for it.
At the moment I'm always thinking of ways to reduce any debt that we my incur, like I said it's tighter now to move. I've looked at different avenues and the only way forward is o/h moves first to find work and for us to move a few months later (I hate this feeling). Finding employment whilst in UK has been impossible but it might be because we haven't quite got PR in place yet. Once we land in Jan we'll have more opportunities to get re-connected with people and find out what's really out there.
We can only take the next step once PR comes, what's taking sooooooo long? Bloody joke! Only have 4 months to land!!!!!! This was on a FSW application, with meds done between Jan-April.
Angela
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Runcorn, Cheshire
Posts: 95
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
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After reading your post, i think that thats a good idea for your husband to go over first, at least that way he can secure things (home,job etc) without the worry of his family and visa-versa. At the mo our details are with the Canadian Embassy and we have been told that we will hear within 10 months wether we have been accepted or not. GOD i am so nervous well i dont know if its nerves or scared... i dont know why im panicing i mean we might not even get in but i cant help it. I keep up with whats going on by reading the Calgary Herald and when you hear some bad things it makes me wonder if we are doing the right thing, better the devil you know and all that.... Also wondering wether we will get jobs on an equal par with the ones we've got now. I know ive no problems but my husband has a really good job here. Well wont boar you anymore just enjoy any advise around from people with same sort of situations
Sep 9th 2010, 2:18 pm
#162
.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,185
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
I'm inclined to agree with you on Secondary Moderns. I was in the first year of intake in the Comprehensive system. The school I went to had until then been a SM. The teachers thought it still was. I was in the 'bright' group. During the first term, we spend more time learning pottery, woodwork, metalwork, technical drawing etc than we did studying academic subjects. That would have continued, had a group of parents not taken action.
Someone dissed Polytechnics. Many of the people I know that went to proper universities haven't done all that well in life. Most of the people I was at Poly with have done very nicely. A lot of us are Expats, which was probably inevitable because we were introduced to it early.
Someone dissed Polytechnics. Many of the people I know that went to proper universities haven't done all that well in life. Most of the people I was at Poly with have done very nicely. A lot of us are Expats, which was probably inevitable because we were introduced to it early.
On a side note one the most brilliantly sinister things the Department of Education did, was in 1965, when they introduced the Certificate of Secondary Education (CSE). This was introduced to abate the growing demand from the working class and minority (afro-Caribbean) community for tangible qualifications. So, instead of providing a legitimate route to attend HE, a route would allow the competition for HE places of millions of extra pupils, they trotted out this piece of worthless paper, something led to nowhere but gave the illusion of qualification. Previously, pupils leaving at 16, had been given personal recommendations by the school, recommendations that employers took quite seriously. Not so the CSE. Thankfully, they got rid it in 1987.
I agree with you on polys. Some of the most dedicated teachers coupled with the drive to succeed from a lower-socio economic group, lead to a lot of really well educated people.
Sep 9th 2010, 5:06 pm
#163
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 251
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Can the current discussion in this thread not be summarised as intelligent driven people achieve more than those who are not and intelligent driven people with greater financial resources achieve more still.
Sep 9th 2010, 9:40 pm
#164
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,340
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Nearly 20% of working age UK households not working and claiming benefits. Any idea what the equivalent statistic would be in Canada?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lds-works.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lds-works.html
Sep 9th 2010, 9:54 pm
#165
slanderer of the innocent
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 6,695
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Nearly 20% of working age UK households not working and claiming benefits. Any idea what the equivalent statistic would be in Canada?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lds-works.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lds-works.html
