The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
Jan 25th 2010, 7:21 pm
#31
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Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Nova Scotia (from Scotland)
Posts: 1,032
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
I have to say, great original post by ann, and great most recent post by JonboyE!
As someone at the beginning of all this, sometimes I wonder why we're doing it. These posts (and others on this thread) remind me.
Thanks
As someone at the beginning of all this, sometimes I wonder why we're doing it. These posts (and others on this thread) remind me.
Thanks
Jan 25th 2010, 7:24 pm
#32
Banned
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: In Limbo
Posts: 15,706
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
Interesting thread. Most of us say we emigrated to seek a better quality of life. To me there are two aspects: the ability to be the person you want to be and the ability to do the things you want to do.
Be the person you want to be
The UK has to be up there amongst the most open and tolerant societies in the world, but it has got there kicking and screaming and still has some way to go.
There is the race thing. I get Rae's comment about wanting to fit in completely. If you are a visible minority in the UK you get it all the time - not just when you open your mouth. The vast majority of people were not nasty about it but it is a pleasant change to be treated as a person first and as something else second. This we have found here.
Crime. Many posters say that they want to live somewhere where their kids can play in the street - like they did when they were young. It has not been a big issue for us. We lived in a low crime area in the UK and we live in a low crime area in Canada. However, I can certainly see that fear of crime can stop you being the person you want to be.
Social mobility. Whether or not there are barriers to social mobility in Canada, and whether or not they are better/worse than in Britain is irrelevant. We are parachuted in free of any baggage. No one knows (or cares) that if we speak with a scouse accent we are work-shy and steal hubcaps, that if we speak with a geordie accent we drink to excess and beat our women, or that if we have a plummy home counties accent we are natural leaders of men.* We have a fresh start and can chose to be who we want.
Family and friends. To be a happy and successful emigrant you have to be somewhat independent of your family and social network in the UK. If part of the person you want to be is a member of an extended family then I quite understand that losing that identity can be devastating. I can also understand that you may not realize that it is part of your identity until you do emigrate.
Personal growth. If the person you want to be is someone who takes on all challenges and celebrates overcoming them, and who wants to find new resources or hidden depth within themselves, then emigration will give you ample opportunities.** If you don't like change, you like the way your life works now, then it is going to be tough.
Do the things you want to do.
This is partly location and partly money.
Location is completely subjective. I love to be by the mountains and the sea. The pan-Asian city and west coast lifestyle suit us down to the ground. I am sure Saskatchewan is a great place to live, but I wouldn't have the same quality of life there that I do here. If you are not in the right place fir you in the UK, then emigration is one way of putting you in the right place.
And money. Yes, life is no fun without money and you need a certain amount to have your desired quality of life. No one can say how much is enough for you. I like to walk up mountains, but my friend prefers to slide down them. My friend has to earn quite a bit more than I do for an equal quality of life. It is perfectly possible to have a high quality of life with very little money, and to be as miserable as sin with lots.
An emigrant has to work out if they will be able to earn enough to do the things they want to do. If yes, then they can look forward to their quality of life. If not, maybe they should stay. Or adapt.
* this is meant to be a joke before you all start.
** yes Alan. I know.
*** usual disclaimer that I know Canada is a huge and varied country so I am just talking of our experiences in our little bit of it.
Be the person you want to be
The UK has to be up there amongst the most open and tolerant societies in the world, but it has got there kicking and screaming and still has some way to go.
There is the race thing. I get Rae's comment about wanting to fit in completely. If you are a visible minority in the UK you get it all the time - not just when you open your mouth. The vast majority of people were not nasty about it but it is a pleasant change to be treated as a person first and as something else second. This we have found here.
Crime. Many posters say that they want to live somewhere where their kids can play in the street - like they did when they were young. It has not been a big issue for us. We lived in a low crime area in the UK and we live in a low crime area in Canada. However, I can certainly see that fear of crime can stop you being the person you want to be.
Social mobility. Whether or not there are barriers to social mobility in Canada, and whether or not they are better/worse than in Britain is irrelevant. We are parachuted in free of any baggage. No one knows (or cares) that if we speak with a scouse accent we are work-shy and steal hubcaps, that if we speak with a geordie accent we drink to excess and beat our women, or that if we have a plummy home counties accent we are natural leaders of men.* We have a fresh start and can chose to be who we want.
Family and friends. To be a happy and successful emigrant you have to be somewhat independent of your family and social network in the UK. If part of the person you want to be is a member of an extended family then I quite understand that losing that identity can be devastating. I can also understand that you may not realize that it is part of your identity until you do emigrate.
Personal growth. If the person you want to be is someone who takes on all challenges and celebrates overcoming them, and who wants to find new resources or hidden depth within themselves, then emigration will give you ample opportunities.** If you don't like change, you like the way your life works now, then it is going to be tough.
Do the things you want to do.
This is partly location and partly money.
Location is completely subjective. I love to be by the mountains and the sea. The pan-Asian city and west coast lifestyle suit us down to the ground. I am sure Saskatchewan is a great place to live, but I wouldn't have the same quality of life there that I do here. If you are not in the right place fir you in the UK, then emigration is one way of putting you in the right place.
And money. Yes, life is no fun without money and you need a certain amount to have your desired quality of life. No one can say how much is enough for you. I like to walk up mountains, but my friend prefers to slide down them. My friend has to earn quite a bit more than I do for an equal quality of life. It is perfectly possible to have a high quality of life with very little money, and to be as miserable as sin with lots.
An emigrant has to work out if they will be able to earn enough to do the things they want to do. If yes, then they can look forward to their quality of life. If not, maybe they should stay. Or adapt.
* this is meant to be a joke before you all start.
** yes Alan. I know.
*** usual disclaimer that I know Canada is a huge and varied country so I am just talking of our experiences in our little bit of it.
nothing else I can say
Jan 25th 2010, 10:00 pm
#34
.........................
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,615
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
Joking aside, good post, thanks
My personal aims are for a a change & different experiences - I have a financially comfortable (well enough for me anyway) life here but have wanted for many years to experience living abroad. Time will tell if the financial hit (that I expect) will be worth the experience, but I do not want 30+ years of what if hanging over me either. I don't dislike Britain at all & even if I don't get to or stay in Canada, I would need to do something v different here too, so it makes sense to me to go for it now.
The exact quality of life when there will, I expect, depend as you say on the financial praciticalities, as well as my attitude to opportunities & experiences when there.
Bali
Jan 26th 2010, 4:04 am
#35
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Cochrane, Alberta
Posts: 7,861
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
Arf.
As a tattoo'd, be-accented, young person who is known for prodigious swearing (Dad was a sailor after all) this made me laugh a bit.
Did you ever wonder whether your FEAR of the young was in any way related to the differences in negative media coverage they garner in Canada and the UK?
And whether you're afraid of the young, or simply afraid of the working classes? What with 'accents' making the list, and the fact that Canada is a society where people have few immediately obvious class indicators.
That's just a little pet theory of a young, tattoo'd, Yorkshire ruffian. And you'd better agree with me or i'll graffiti your cat and drink cider on your porch.
As a tattoo'd, be-accented, young person who is known for prodigious swearing (Dad was a sailor after all) this made me laugh a bit.
Did you ever wonder whether your FEAR of the young was in any way related to the differences in negative media coverage they garner in Canada and the UK?
And whether you're afraid of the young, or simply afraid of the working classes? What with 'accents' making the list, and the fact that Canada is a society where people have few immediately obvious class indicators.
That's just a little pet theory of a young, tattoo'd, Yorkshire ruffian. And you'd better agree with me or i'll graffiti your cat and drink cider on your porch.
For clarification, I do not FEAR the young. I said I don't really notice them. Which for me, is a different perspective to when I lived in the UK. I did notice them. And invariably not for great reasons (and I rarely read a newspaper, either there or here, so the Daily Mail does not affect my attitudes).
My comment that you quoted also is not necessarily borne out of snobbishness that you seem to think it is.
Example in the UK - two fifteen year old girls standing outside a shop on a Saturday afternoon in Sussex in December - top of their voices for all to admire:
"'Ere, I need a piss"
"Fackin 'ell - me an all - I need a piss too"
This is the kind of delightful exchange I don't miss here. Now, before anyone jumps down my throat and says "well, of course, that happens here too" - I'm sure it does. It's just not in my face, it's not a regular occurrence, and as I said before, I don't notice groups of young people here with the same crass attitude to everyone around them.
I don't notice groups of five lads hanging around with a bottle each, swearing and generally being loud and intimidating.
I don't notice young girls throwing up at 10pm in the main street.
I don't notice mindless vandalism.
(Edit - and yes, I'll say it before anyone else does - I need to get out more - and start going to the right places!)
Yes - it goes on, somewhere. Yes, kids drink, smoke and swear - I don't care where, but they are not burping and puffing it in my face when I go out.
That is the difference I was trying to portray to your young mind
Last edited by ann m; Jan 26th 2010 at 4:07 am.
Jan 26th 2010, 4:06 am
#36
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Cochrane, Alberta
Posts: 7,861
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
Jan 26th 2010, 4:09 am
#37
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Cochrane, Alberta
Posts: 7,861
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
I tire of all the on-leash laws - which I know are there for a very good reason. It just makes it problematic to give the dogs a bloody good, knacker-them-out run without trawling up and down the same little off-leash areas. Get's boring!
Jan 26th 2010, 4:18 am
#38
Tea Drinker
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
Posts: 5,387
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
One day a rich American who had made millions from speculating on the stock market was strolling along the beach and saw a fisherman pulling in his boat with his meager catch.
The rich American stopped and remarked “not much of a catch today”. The fisherman replied “yes not much” but explained that his small catch was enough for him and his family.
The rich American asked, “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”
“I sleep late, play with my children and have an afternoon’s rest under a coconut tree. In the evenings, I go to the local pub to see my friends, play some music, and sing a few songs….. I have a full and happy life.” replied the fisherman.
The rich American ventured, “I have an MBA from Harvard and I can help you…… You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat.
With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have a large fleet. Instead of selling your fish to a middleman, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to a city from where you can direct your huge enterprise.”
“And after that?” asked the fisherman.What a poor Fisherman can teach you about Retirement
“After that? That’s when it gets really interesting,” answered the rich American, laughing, “When your business gets really big, you can start selling stock in your company and make millions!”
“Millions? Really? And after that?” pressed the fisherman.
“After that you’ll be able to retire, move out to a small village by the sea, sleep in late every day, spend time with your family, go fishing, take afternoon naps under a coconut tree, and spend relaxing evenings with friends…”
Jan 26th 2010, 4:23 am
#39
Banned
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: The City by the Mall
Posts: 862
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
....unintentional comedy interlude:
Right, back to the thread...
Right, back to the thread...
Jan 26th 2010, 4:45 am
#40
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
I sometimes wonder that myself, reminds me of this story?
One day a rich American who had made millions from speculating on the stock market was strolling along the beach and saw a fisherman pulling in his boat with his meager catch.
The rich American stopped and remarked “not much of a catch today”. The fisherman replied “yes not much” but explained that his small catch was enough for him and his family.
The rich American asked, “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”
“I sleep late, play with my children and have an afternoon’s rest under a coconut tree. In the evenings, I go to the local pub to see my friends, play some music, and sing a few songs….. I have a full and happy life.” replied the fisherman.
The rich American ventured, “I have an MBA from Harvard and I can help you…… You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat.
With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have a large fleet. Instead of selling your fish to a middleman, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to a city from where you can direct your huge enterprise.”
“And after that?” asked the fisherman.What a poor Fisherman can teach you about Retirement
“After that? That’s when it gets really interesting,” answered the rich American, laughing, “When your business gets really big, you can start selling stock in your company and make millions!”
“Millions? Really? And after that?” pressed the fisherman.
“After that you’ll be able to retire, move out to a small village by the sea, sleep in late every day, spend time with your family, go fishing, take afternoon naps under a coconut tree, and spend relaxing evenings with friends…”
One day a rich American who had made millions from speculating on the stock market was strolling along the beach and saw a fisherman pulling in his boat with his meager catch.
The rich American stopped and remarked “not much of a catch today”. The fisherman replied “yes not much” but explained that his small catch was enough for him and his family.
The rich American asked, “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”
“I sleep late, play with my children and have an afternoon’s rest under a coconut tree. In the evenings, I go to the local pub to see my friends, play some music, and sing a few songs….. I have a full and happy life.” replied the fisherman.
The rich American ventured, “I have an MBA from Harvard and I can help you…… You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat.
With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have a large fleet. Instead of selling your fish to a middleman, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to a city from where you can direct your huge enterprise.”
“And after that?” asked the fisherman.What a poor Fisherman can teach you about Retirement
“After that? That’s when it gets really interesting,” answered the rich American, laughing, “When your business gets really big, you can start selling stock in your company and make millions!”
“Millions? Really? And after that?” pressed the fisherman.
“After that you’ll be able to retire, move out to a small village by the sea, sleep in late every day, spend time with your family, go fishing, take afternoon naps under a coconut tree, and spend relaxing evenings with friends…”
Jan 26th 2010, 2:22 pm
#41
Tea Drinker
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
Posts: 5,387
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
I've seen this little tale any number of times over the years (tho the mba element is a new spin, serving only to enhance the american caricature). It's a load of rubbish really - the fisherman in his previous state has to fish every day or he will starve. The rich fisherman has freedom, the poor one will have to work till he dies or rely on the charity of others.
Jan 26th 2010, 3:13 pm
#42
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: Wellington, Nova Scotia
Posts: 752
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
Interesting thread. Most of us say we emigrated to seek a better quality of life. To me there are two aspects: the ability to be the person you want to be and the ability to do the things you want to do.
Be the person you want to be
The UK has to be up there amongst the most open and tolerant societies in the world, but it has got there kicking and screaming and still has some way to go.
There is the race thing. I get Rae's comment about wanting to fit in completely. If you are a visible minority in the UK you get it all the time - not just when you open your mouth. The vast majority of people were not nasty about it but it is a pleasant change to be treated as a person first and as something else second. This we have found here.
Crime. Many posters say that they want to live somewhere where their kids can play in the street - like they did when they were young. It has not been a big issue for us. We lived in a low crime area in the UK and we live in a low crime area in Canada. However, I can certainly see that fear of crime can stop you being the person you want to be.
Social mobility. Whether or not there are barriers to social mobility in Canada, and whether or not they are better/worse than in Britain is irrelevant. We are parachuted in free of any baggage. No one knows (or cares) that if we speak with a scouse accent we are work-shy and steal hubcaps, that if we speak with a geordie accent we drink to excess and beat our women, or that if we have a plummy home counties accent we are natural leaders of men.* We have a fresh start and can chose to be who we want.
Family and friends. To be a happy and successful emigrant you have to be somewhat independent of your family and social network in the UK. If part of the person you want to be is a member of an extended family then I quite understand that losing that identity can be devastating. I can also understand that you may not realize that it is part of your identity until you do emigrate.
Personal growth. If the person you want to be is someone who takes on all challenges and celebrates overcoming them, and who wants to find new resources or hidden depth within themselves, then emigration will give you ample opportunities.** If you don't like change, you like the way your life works now, then it is going to be tough.
Do the things you want to do.
This is partly location and partly money.
Location is completely subjective. I love to be by the mountains and the sea. The pan-Asian city and west coast lifestyle suit us down to the ground. I am sure Saskatchewan is a great place to live, but I wouldn't have the same quality of life there that I do here. If you are not in the right place fir you in the UK, then emigration is one way of putting you in the right place.
And money. Yes, life is no fun without money and you need a certain amount to have your desired quality of life. No one can say how much is enough for you. I like to walk up mountains, but my friend prefers to slide down them. My friend has to earn quite a bit more than I do for an equal quality of life. It is perfectly possible to have a high quality of life with very little money, and to be as miserable as sin with lots.
An emigrant has to work out if they will be able to earn enough to do the things they want to do. If yes, then they can look forward to their quality of life. If not, maybe they should stay. Or adapt.
* this is meant to be a joke before you all start.
** yes Alan. I know.
*** usual disclaimer that I know Canada is a huge and varied country so I am just talking of our experiences in our little bit of it.
Be the person you want to be
The UK has to be up there amongst the most open and tolerant societies in the world, but it has got there kicking and screaming and still has some way to go.
There is the race thing. I get Rae's comment about wanting to fit in completely. If you are a visible minority in the UK you get it all the time - not just when you open your mouth. The vast majority of people were not nasty about it but it is a pleasant change to be treated as a person first and as something else second. This we have found here.
Crime. Many posters say that they want to live somewhere where their kids can play in the street - like they did when they were young. It has not been a big issue for us. We lived in a low crime area in the UK and we live in a low crime area in Canada. However, I can certainly see that fear of crime can stop you being the person you want to be.
Social mobility. Whether or not there are barriers to social mobility in Canada, and whether or not they are better/worse than in Britain is irrelevant. We are parachuted in free of any baggage. No one knows (or cares) that if we speak with a scouse accent we are work-shy and steal hubcaps, that if we speak with a geordie accent we drink to excess and beat our women, or that if we have a plummy home counties accent we are natural leaders of men.* We have a fresh start and can chose to be who we want.
Family and friends. To be a happy and successful emigrant you have to be somewhat independent of your family and social network in the UK. If part of the person you want to be is a member of an extended family then I quite understand that losing that identity can be devastating. I can also understand that you may not realize that it is part of your identity until you do emigrate.
Personal growth. If the person you want to be is someone who takes on all challenges and celebrates overcoming them, and who wants to find new resources or hidden depth within themselves, then emigration will give you ample opportunities.** If you don't like change, you like the way your life works now, then it is going to be tough.
Do the things you want to do.
This is partly location and partly money.
Location is completely subjective. I love to be by the mountains and the sea. The pan-Asian city and west coast lifestyle suit us down to the ground. I am sure Saskatchewan is a great place to live, but I wouldn't have the same quality of life there that I do here. If you are not in the right place fir you in the UK, then emigration is one way of putting you in the right place.
And money. Yes, life is no fun without money and you need a certain amount to have your desired quality of life. No one can say how much is enough for you. I like to walk up mountains, but my friend prefers to slide down them. My friend has to earn quite a bit more than I do for an equal quality of life. It is perfectly possible to have a high quality of life with very little money, and to be as miserable as sin with lots.
An emigrant has to work out if they will be able to earn enough to do the things they want to do. If yes, then they can look forward to their quality of life. If not, maybe they should stay. Or adapt.
* this is meant to be a joke before you all start.
** yes Alan. I know.
*** usual disclaimer that I know Canada is a huge and varied country so I am just talking of our experiences in our little bit of it.
Be who I want to be, leave the baggage and dysfunctional relies behind and do the things I want to do like sit on an uncrowded beach in August, (and before the weather comments start, I don't like the heat), have a bit more space to breathe.
Jan 26th 2010, 3:35 pm
#43
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
I know, I know.... But as an allegory about the romance of living a 'simpler life' many on this forum will identify with it. It certainly pushes the right buttons with the 'quality of life' vs 'standard of living' judgement it has at it's core. Unfortunately the premise of the morality tale is flawed.
Jan 26th 2010, 4:35 pm
#44
Slightly Canadian
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland
Posts: 10,129
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
Strangely appropriate for an Accountant who moves to Canada?
Last edited by Atlantic Xpat; Jan 26th 2010 at 4:58 pm.
Jan 27th 2010, 12:24 pm
#45
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 183
Re: The old "Quality of Life" discussion ...
Hi Ann - Brilliant thread. I've been thinking what quality of life means to me for a while. I used to have no quality of life at all - just work, work, work. I made quite a bit of money but I spent a lot of it on things that enabled me to work more hours.
I'm not totally there yet but some of the things quality of life mean to me are:
Health - Aside from death - poor health is probably the main thing that can really affect your quality of life.
Time - To spend with family and friends and do things you enjoy, instead of spending every waking hour working.
Security - Knowing that you'll always have enough to keep a roof over your head, food on the table, pay the bills etc and back up resources/plan, incase things do go wrong.
Social Contact - Family or friends around you - feeling isolated is a horrible thing. Also, having contact with folk that have similar values to you is important, otherwise you can feel just as lonely.
Adventure - Having the opportunity to try new things and learn new things. I've seen relatives and neighbours retire, to sit in front of the tv, day in day out and the idea of doing that scares me more than dying.
Freedom - To be able to do, be and say what you want.
Safety - I know you should be careful wherever you are but it feels a whole lot better if you know that you're unlikely to get mugged, or shot walking down the street and you're home probably won't get broken into at night.
Also being able to breath fresh air when you leave the house is more important to me, than needing to wear a mask to go to work, for an extra 20 grand a year.
I could probably think of a few more - but those are the main ones for me, off the top of my head.
I'm not totally there yet but some of the things quality of life mean to me are:
Health - Aside from death - poor health is probably the main thing that can really affect your quality of life.
Time - To spend with family and friends and do things you enjoy, instead of spending every waking hour working.
Security - Knowing that you'll always have enough to keep a roof over your head, food on the table, pay the bills etc and back up resources/plan, incase things do go wrong.
Social Contact - Family or friends around you - feeling isolated is a horrible thing. Also, having contact with folk that have similar values to you is important, otherwise you can feel just as lonely.
Adventure - Having the opportunity to try new things and learn new things. I've seen relatives and neighbours retire, to sit in front of the tv, day in day out and the idea of doing that scares me more than dying.
Freedom - To be able to do, be and say what you want.
Safety - I know you should be careful wherever you are but it feels a whole lot better if you know that you're unlikely to get mugged, or shot walking down the street and you're home probably won't get broken into at night.
Also being able to breath fresh air when you leave the house is more important to me, than needing to wear a mask to go to work, for an extra 20 grand a year.
I could probably think of a few more - but those are the main ones for me, off the top of my head.
