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Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Old Feb 13th 2021, 1:35 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by OrangeMango View Post
I still find it hard to believe that Trudeau wants to charge every Canadian $2000 for re-entering the country...
Probably, once upon a time, people thought it was outrageous that returning citizens to any country had to pay for their own document to prove eligibility to enter.
Maybe there was a time where it wasn't liked that citizens had to pay for a document showing their eligibility to drive a vehicle.

Perhaps in 10 years time this will not only be considered normal, but essential too.
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Old Feb 13th 2021, 1:55 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Probably, once upon a time, people thought it was outrageous that returning citizens to any country had to pay for their own document to prove eligibility to enter.
Maybe there was a time where it wasn't liked that citizens had to pay for a document showing their eligibility to drive a vehicle.

Perhaps in 10 years time this will not only be considered normal, but essential too.
If this is still going in 10 years or even in 10 months from now then there would be no travel sector left to transport anyone outside of their country of current residence anyway. Airlines can only continue to function in the way they currently are for so long. They're getting by through supplementing low passenger numbers with carrying freight but it will only be a matter of time before the postal and courier services find a more cost effective method of doing that. I read yesterday the Royal Mail had a record Christmas in 2020 in terms of deliveries and profits whilst a lot of airlines are struggling just to keep their heads above water.
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Old Feb 13th 2021, 2:33 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
If this is still going in 10 years or even in 10 months from now then there would be no travel sector left to transport anyone outside of their country of current residence anyway. Airlines can only continue to function in the way they currently are for so long. They're getting by through supplementing low passenger numbers with carrying freight but it will only be a matter of time before the postal and courier services find a more cost effective method of doing that. I read yesterday the Royal Mail had a record Christmas in 2020 in terms of deliveries and profits whilst a lot of airlines are struggling just to keep their heads above water.
I can see quarantine being the norm for many years to come. I honestly think the whole air travel model will be shaken up, will exist for the important and the rich still but casual flights places for a city break won't return for many years - at which point it becomes another cost and inconvenience linked to travel, you get 11 days in Mexico coupled with 3 days in a hotel in Canada for a 2 week break.

Can see airlines still existing but in very condensed forms, less flights, planes and pilots and more cargo per flight. At that point they could even become government subsidised.

Whilst the UK is doing well on the vaccine front and Canada is seen as doing badly, the truth of the matter is testing and vaccination is a long way ahead of third world countries, so more mutations and vaccine resistant strains will no doubt pop up.

Coupled with the fact that plenty of these countries probably are looking at 2+ years to vaccinate against current strains and in normal times would have direct or easy connecting flights into Europe, The US and Canada.

Suprised America hasn't come out with anything as of yet.

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Old Feb 13th 2021, 2:42 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by Stumpylegs View Post
I can see quarantine being the norm for many years to come. I honestly think the whole air travel model will be shaken up, will exist for the important and the rich still but casual flights places for a city break won't return for many years - at which point it becomes another cost and inconvenience linked to travel, you get 11 days in Mexico coupled with 3 days in a hotel in Canada for a 2 week break.

Can see airlines still existing but in very condensed forms, less flights, planes and pilots and more cargo per flight. At that point they could even become government subsidised.

Whilst the UK is doing well on the vaccine front and Canada is seen as doing badly, the truth of the matter is testing and vaccination is a long way ahead of third world countries, so more mutations and vaccine resistant strains will no doubt pop up.

Coupled with the fact that plenty of these countries probably are looking at 2+ years to vaccinate against current strains and in normal times would have direct or easy connecting flights into Europe, The US and Canada.

Suprised America hasn't come out with anything as of yet.
We can only speculate but I would doubt that tbh. It will probably go more like the approach to HIV and other communicable diseases that developed countries h ave had for years. I.e. once the rich countries have completed vaccination by the end of 2021-ish then they'll impose mandatory testing on less developed countries. The UK for example require visitors from parts of Africa to submit HIV certificates in order to even get a tourist visa. There is already the AUNZ travel bubble and no doubt that will be extended to include other parts of Asia soon enough. The idea that in 2-3 years from now people in the developed world won't be able to even take a short vacation without some sort of testing and quarantine hurdle though is a little bit far fetched for me.

Let's not forget that less than 12 months ago the idea of a developed western nation "locking down" was like something out of a bad sci-fi movie and less than 4 months ago, the vaccines were still a pipe dream and many were saying they may never exist. My parents in the UK aren't old by any means but chances are given the current rate of vaccination in the UK, they will likely have received their first jabs by Easter.
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Old Feb 13th 2021, 2:54 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by Stumpylegs View Post
I can see quarantine being the norm for many years to come. I honestly think the whole air travel model will be shaken up, will exist for the important and the rich still but casual flights places for a city break won't return for many years - at which point it becomes another cost and inconvenience linked to travel, you get 11 days in Mexico coupled with 3 days in a hotel in Canada for a 2 week break.

Can see airlines still existing but in very condensed forms, less flights, planes and pilots and more cargo per flight. At that point they could even become government subsidised.

Whilst the UK is doing well on the vaccine front and Canada is seen as doing badly, the truth of the matter is testing and vaccination is a long way ahead of third world countries, so more mutations and vaccine resistant strains will no doubt pop up.

Coupled with the fact that plenty of these countries probably are looking at 2+ years to vaccinate against current strains and in normal times would have direct or easy connecting flights into Europe, The US and Canada.

Suprised America hasn't come out with anything as of yet.
I sadly have had the same feelings. The airline industry as long been looking for a solid testing and tracing solution, and that was never implemented, - instead, the taxpayer had to bail them out. Also, I am surprised that the US hasn't come up with something similar, Trump for sure would have. Expect the quarantine in Canada to be at least for the whole year of 2021, and that's an optimistic plan. Also "Dr" Tam won't change her mind any time soon, even if there is more and more scientific evidence that one who has been vaccinated is no longer contagious. It's just that mindset of thinking.

I also like to think that from a reasonable perspective Canada can't continue like that forever. However what is reasonable in the terms of politicians.

The current $2000 bill would at some point be scrapped as ( not only myself ) think it's a clear Charter violation, thus I am hoping it'll be overturned by legal means at some point.
( I am also pretty sure, that $2000 isn't the beginning of the price tag, they could easily charge $100 per day for internet access and another fortune for food of lower quality, they can charge any price they like.....)

The issue is also that Canadians are travelling for all sorts of other reasons, other than warm weather or pleasure. Some get certain medical treatment overseas, which is not available in Canada, or not at a reasonable price, or they have more trust in handling a medical complex matter in their own language ( immigrants would tend to think that way ) or they own property overseas as well, where they have to do some work on. And then there are family issues / relatives to consider.

Fact is, if Canada can indeed go this fascist populist way ( it's nothing else other than that ) Immigrants won't find the country that attractive anymore.

And then there is still the Alberta entry option and then there are trips to Hawaii? Apparently they are still possible? However there was absolutely no mention of this being scrapped or changed?



Last edited by OrangeMango; Feb 13th 2021 at 3:00 pm.
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Old Feb 13th 2021, 3:00 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by OrangeMango View Post
I sadly have had the same feelings. The airline industry as long been looking for a solid testing and tracing solution, and that was never implemented, - instead, the taxpayer had to bail them out. Also, I am surprised that the US hasn't come up with something similar, Trump for sure would have. Expect the quarantine in Canada to be at least for the whole year of 2021, and that's an optimistic plan. Also "Dr" Tam won't change her mind any time soon, even if there is more and more scientific evidence that one who has been vaccinated is no longer contagious. It's just that mindset of thinking.

I also like to think that from a reasonable perspective Canada can't continue like that forever. However what is reasonable in the terms of politicians.

The current $2000 bill would at some point be scrapped as ( not only myself ) think it's a clear Charter violation, thus I am hoping it'll be overturned by legal means at some point.
( I am also pretty sure, that $2000 isn't the beginning they could easily charge $100 per day for internet access and another fortune for food, they can charge any price they like.....)

The issue is also that Canadians are travelling for all sorts of other reasons, other than warm weather or pleasure. Some get certain medical treatment overseas, which is not available, or not at a reasonable price, or they have more trust in handling a medical complex matter in their own language ( immigrants would tend to think that way ) or they own property overseas as well, where they have to do some work on. And then there are family issues / relatives to consider.

Fact is, Canada can go this fascist populist way ( it's nothing else other than that ) however Immigrants won't find the country that attractive anymore.

And then there is still the Alberta entry option and then there are trips to Hawaii? Apparently they are still possible? However there was absolutely no mention of this being scrapped or changed?
I think to call the Trudeau government populist is a bit of a stretch to be honest. Last year's new immigrant figures were reportedly the lowest since the 1980's and that includes the Harper years when I first came here whereby if your occupation wasn't on a tightly controlled list or you didn't have PNP or Canadian Experience then you weren't immigrating as an international skilled worker, full stop.

The airlines do have a partial solution right now with Verifly, it just doesn't apply to Canada yet. But considering the US has been using it for a while and it is now being adopted on flights to the UK then I think it will only be a matter of time until Canada and others adopt it as well. If the vaccines are proven to prevent communication as well as infection on the known variants then Verifly could act as a kind of vaccination passport.
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Old Feb 13th 2021, 3:10 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I think to call the Trudeau government populist is a bit of a stretch to be honest.
I think it has turned to populist - fascist on the Covid 19 matter. These are my personal sentiments on this. I also think that Ford in Ontario influenced him a great deal. The $2000 bill is just there to punish, as they seem to be able to criminalize travel altogether. Everyone is guilty, and can't really prove otherwise, or only after 3 days, after having paid the "fine" of $2000. Also, I think the Charter has been violated here, at least by the financial bill which apparently everyone has to bear, regardless.

And when I think back, how they legalized Cannabis, how they started a discourse about decriminalizing possession of certain other drugs it makes me want to vomit, when I compare this with the handling of the Covid 19 crisis.

A solution like in Alberta would have worked in Toronto as well.

Sadly this discussion was never possible.


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Old Feb 13th 2021, 3:42 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

A reminder to keep politics out of the thread please.... thank you.

If you want to discuss the political implications, feel free to start a new thread.
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Old Feb 13th 2021, 4:05 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by Siouxie View Post
A reminder to keep politics out of the thread please.... thank you.

If you want to discuss the political implications, feel free to start a new thread.
Siouxie, if I may, it sadly is a political matter a well, it was from the start. It's certainly not that the difference between Alberta and the rest of the country is science based.

It is also widely known that the figure of imported cases into Canada is very low, and with improved and more rigours testing, it could be further narrowed....

Last edited by OrangeMango; Feb 13th 2021 at 4:10 pm.
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Old Feb 13th 2021, 4:18 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by OrangeMango View Post
Siouxie, if I may, it sadly is a political matter a well, it was from the start. It's certainly not that the difference between Alberta and the rest of the country is science based.

It is also widely known that the figure of imported cases into Canada is very low, and with improved and more rigours testing, it could be further narrowed....
SIGH. Please start a new thread if you want to drag politics into it. This is more of an informative thread for those who have to or will be going to go through the process...

Thank you.
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Old Feb 13th 2021, 5:43 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by Siouxie View Post
SIGH. Please start a new thread if you want to drag politics into it. This is more of an informative thread for those who have to or will be going to go through the process...

Thank you.
Sigh as well from my side.

Why do we need to have a difference of opinion over this?

Who takes the ultimate decision? Politicians or scientists?

And why start new threads if it's one and the same subject?

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Old Feb 13th 2021, 9:04 pm
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Default Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quarantine

Originally Posted by OrangeMango View Post
Sigh as well from my side.

Why do we need to have a difference of opinion over this?

Who takes the ultimate decision? Politicians or scientists?

And why start new threads if it's one and the same subject?
Who makes the ultimate decision?? Moderators.
Why start new threads? Because you were asked to... but never mind, I did it for you.

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Old Feb 13th 2021, 11:24 pm
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Default Re: Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quaran

Originally Posted by OrangeMango View Post
I think it has turned to populist - fascist on the Covid 19 matter. These are my personal sentiments on this. I also think that Ford in Ontario influenced him a great deal. The $2000 bill is just there to punish, as they seem to be able to criminalize travel altogether. Everyone is guilty, and can't really prove otherwise, or only after 3 days, after having paid the "fine" of $2000. Also, I think the Charter has been violated here, at least by the financial bill which apparently everyone has to bear, regardless.

And when I think back, how they legalized Cannabis, how they started a discourse about decriminalizing possession of certain other drugs it makes me want to vomit, when I compare this with the handling of the Covid 19 crisis.

A solution like in Alberta would have worked in Toronto as well.

Sadly this discussion was never possible.
How about as a deterren not a punishment? Also it stops the rest of us having to pick up the tab for those that decide to vacation n spite of all requests not to Do so.
As for the fascism part, that's laughable. You obsession with quarantine has clearly affected your judgement.
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Old Feb 14th 2021, 11:59 am
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Default Re: Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quaran

Originally Posted by bats View Post
How about as a deterren not a punishment? Also it stops the rest of us having to pick up the tab for those that decide to vacation n spite of all requests not to Do so.
As for the fascism part, that's laughable. You obsession with quarantine has clearly affected your judgement.
I am using the word "fascism" in relation to the forced payment of $2000 for something I didn't do and would initially not be designed against my intention. The regulation is obviously introduced against holidaymakers, and yes and agreed, for those it can and will be seen as a deterrent.

However a possible returning citizen, returning to Canada after life overseas ( able to prove so by tax documents and bills ) will be forced to pay the bill. If they don't like that, they have to stay outside the country, even though they are citizens and it's their country. This is what I feel is punishment of the wrong crowd, and that has in my sentiments fascist trademarks. Sentiments and feelings are different for everyone of us. I even perceive it as negative that you're using the word "obsession" and "laughable", especially as Alberta seems to have workable solution, however not certain how long it lasts.

To date there is no understanding how the $2000 came about for 3 nights? How long this regulation will be in place? And what kind of criteria would have to be met, in order for this to be discontinued? A vaccination certificate? A certain incidence rate? A certain infection rate? One can only guess........ Also there is no knowledge how long the "Alberta option" will be there, and under what kind of criteria this will be stopped?

Last edited by OrangeMango; Feb 14th 2021 at 12:03 pm.
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Old Feb 14th 2021, 12:13 pm
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Default Re: Moved from Covid Quarantine > Political posts on the subject of Covid Quaran

Originally Posted by bats View Post
How about as a deterren not a punishment? Also it stops the rest of us having to pick up the tab for those that decide to vacation n spite of all requests not to Do so.
I somewhat agree with you there. I don't think it's fair for the Canadian tax payer to collect the tab for other people's hotel stays and that's exactly what has happened so far when citizens and PR's have returned without any kind of plan.

What I object to is charging new immigrants and people returning from essential travel. I think that's a bit unfair and especially when the same rules aren't going to be applied at the land border. I'm quite sure refugees will receive some sort of help to cover the cost.
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