Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Trying to exchange UK Motorcycle licence in Ontario and need help with navigating MTO/DriveTest bureaucracy.

I now understand that there is no official exchange for motorcycle in Ontario, but I know several people who have nevertheless got an exchange, and several older posts here indicate that it depends on the discretion of the individual DriveTest centre. I cannot afford to spend thousands on new M licencing, so I am determined to fight for it.

Here's my situation: I exchanged my (car+motorcycle) UK licence a few years ago for an Ontario (G). I didn't realise that M was a separate class at the time. I wasn't given the option to exchange for an M, nor was I told that I wasn't getting it, and assumed that I had got like for like. Now needing to drive in a rural area without public transit, I rang the MTO who told me that I should have specifically asked for the M during the exchange so it's my fault, and that I now need to obtain a UK driver's abstract and repay registration fees.

Fearing that I couldn't obtain a UK abstract (as my UK licence reports as exchanged online), I wrote to the MTO, asking for advice and complaining about the shambles. I was shocked to be informed that they don't recognise motorcycle licences from "Great Britain", but do from "Northern Ireland" where the "jurisdiction’s licensing processes are secure, similar to Ontario’s, and in alignment with Ontario’s road safety goals." They however cannot explain how several Brits have managed to get M licences in Ontario exchange in the past and instead insist that DriveTest is operated by Serco DES Inc (an private company)- so to go complain to them "If you have experienced discrepancies".

1. Anyone recently exchanged their UK Motorcycle licence for a full M in Ontario (without re-taking tests)? Which DriveTest did you go to? As it seems to be hit and miss, depending on the location. You can message me privately if you don't want to share this info here.

2. How is GB different from NI in terms of licensing "processes" and "road safety"? I understand that NI operates to the same core licensing standard as the rest of the UK for both car and motorcycle. Nor is it about a lack of mutual agreement- as the UK recognises motorcycle licences from Ontario.

3. Is there some kind of backstory behind this? I'm thinking that perhaps something previously officially ended the UK-Ontario MC agreement, or it lapsed and wasn't renewed, but either formal or informal guidance was issue to senior DriveTest staff to use their discretion to issue licences? Why else would MTO would plead ignorance and look the other way when DriveTest does an apparently illegal licence exchange? Licences are legal documents. Clearly there is something amiss.

4. I understand that several other provinces apart from Quebec (which hates motorcycles) offer full UK M exchange, and Ontario would recognise such a provincially-issued licence for exchange. Again, how are Ontario licencing standards different from these other provinces? Clearly it is not about road safety.

5. Failing this, any advice on getting a discount on M2 course? I cannot afford or justify all the costs, for a scooter (I am capable of riding in winter, no problem).

Thanks for your patience. I'm determined to see this one through and not give up.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Why not just take the test? There is no need to take a course.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

The course is de facto mandatory. There is a stitch up between the province, private companies that run the course, and insurance companies.

None of the DriveTest centres I've spoken to will permit a test without the course. They need to specially organize a vehicle to follow for one person and they won't do it. If you manage to convince them, I've been informed that the attitude is to highly disapprove of such situations and give a fail for no apparent reason. The same test on the course is however a formality. And good luck getting insurance on m1 to buy or rent a vehicle to take the test and insurance companies won't currently even quote for an Ontario passed licence, without the course. They will consider previous history with an exchanged licence, however.

And the course fees are ridiculous. The cartel is basically high level corruption and I won't feed it.

Rather, I am determined to right this wrong for both myself and all future immigrants.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

I don't think there is an exchange agreement. Same as with tractor trailers (lorries).

Think your just going to have to suck it up if you wanna ride.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

I don't think any province exchanges for lorries or commercial licences, that's a fairly silly comparison. Most provinces apart from Quebec (which hates two wheelers) do exchange motorcycle licences. I cannot afford the course route and I should not have to. I need not suck it up, I will be fighting for my rights. Any information anyone can provide will be helpful.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

OK. That isn't the case in Alberta. Here, you can simply rock up and take the test.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Ontario makes it very difficult. Insurance is also 5-10x higher than in Alberta.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

I was under the impression that most Provinces required you to take the test - test certainly the case in Alberta.

Also the rules are the rules, why should you have special exemption?

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Currently all provinces exchange for car and most provinces exchange for motorcycle. In Ontario, they claim that motorcycles are not part of the exchange agreement, but this isn't true. There is a reciprocal exchange agreement between the UK (GB) and the "Canadian Provinces and Territories" and the DVLA claims that this is a like-for-like exchange of both car and motorcycle licences. I have submitted a FOI request in the UK and am liaising with the MTO in Ontario to get hold of the actual exchange agreement to verify this for myself.

In addition to this, it would appear to be the luck of the draw as to the willingness of the drivetest centre to exchange your licence (under debate).

A reciprocal exchange agreement is a mutual entitlement. I am working to get to the bottom of the matter. Not everyone has the time and money to re-do many years of basic training, with the insurance and course fees which it involves.

Any information that more experienced expats can offer would be very helpful.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

From the official website

When you can’t exchange

• a motorcycle class driver’s licence from Japan, South Korea, Germany, France, Great Britain, Austria, Belgium, Isle of Man, or Republic of Ireland for a Class M Motorcycle licence, because the exchange agreements mentioned above do not include motorcycle class driver’s licences.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/exchange...rivers-licence

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

As I stated in my previous post, although Ontario claims (on this website) that the exchange agreement with GB doesn't include motorcycles, DVLA insists that it does (formal FOI confirmation: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...ian_motorcycle)

The exchange agreement would appear to between the UK and ALL "Canadian provinces and territories". There does not appear to be individual agreements for each province. Ontario will have to explain which agreement they are referring to, which they say doesn't "include motorcycle class driver’s licences", or if they are deciding not to honour the agreement, then to update their guidance accordingly. To make clear, the UK will exchange an Ontario motorcycle licence on the basis of this mutual exchange agreement.

I am working to obtain a copy of the actual exchange agreement to get to the bottom of this.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Given that driver licensing is the responsibility of each of the provinces/territories individually, I would be very surprised if DVLA had one agreement that covered all of them. Incidentally I just checked some other ones and BC will exchange it, but Alberta will only exchange a motorcycle license from Northern Ireland and not England/Scotland/Wales.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

1. On their website the DVLA refers to an agreement with "Canadian provinces and territories" and in the FOI answer refers to "Canada". They do not refer to individual provinces by name.
2. Perhaps provinces don't make their own international agreements with foreign states, so the Federal government may have entered into an international agreement on behalf of Canadian Provinces and Territories.
3. Regardless of this, the issue is that the DVLA says that motorcycles are included in exchanges with ALL Canadian provinces and Ontario says otherwise.
4. I have asked both the MTO (Ontario) and DVLA for a copy of the actual exchange agreement which they are abiding by, which will clearly resolve this issue. However I'm being stalled: DVLA replied by email "we cannot provide this information by email" and Ontario is no longer replying to my emails. I am thus making FOI (UK) and ATIP requests to get answers.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Re: 2, provinces do make agreements with other countries for license exchange, Ireland (for example) has separate agreements with most of the provinces (and none of territories) and they all came into effect at different times and have different entitlements. For example, they will exchange a BC motorcycle license but not an Ontario one.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Appreciate the info, so Canadian Provinces can make agreements themselves. However in Ontario, the The Highway Traffic Act seems to limit the power of the Province to make reciprocal agreements to Canada and USA onlyIf it is on a province-by-province basis, it still seems odd that the DVLA will recognise motorcycle licences from any Canadian Province, but not vice-versa. If it is a reciprocal agreement, then won't it apply both ways? Perhaps it used to be recognised and later changed.

I've found a copy of reciprocal agreement between Quebec and DVLA (GB) referring to car and moped/scooter only. I am trying to find the relevant agreement between Ontario an GB. If like Quebec, it includes moped/scooter, that would help as I could get a low powered scooter for now. If I do get my motorcycle licence on exchange, it's not for pleasure riding, I'd probably get a 125cc motorcycle or scooter for my 70km rural commute.

I cycle 12 months of the year and am weather immune.

I will report back here when I hear back from the DVLA/Ontario.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

"I cycle 12 months of the year and am weather immune"

What about depth of snow, how do you use a motorbike when the snow is too deep for cars?

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Most roads are clear and there isn't a heavy snow storm every day, mate. In Ontario the majority of the winter is cold but with a clear sky and clear roads, and you just carry on. People commonly cycle and ride in northern Europe in -20. Some Canadians are just too acclimatised to heating. I wear a kilt in -20 (don't ask whats underneath). You just get used to it and carry on.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Good God, riding at -20c you gotta be certifiable.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

There aren't that many -20 days here. Winter riding is standard fare in Northern Europe. Perhaps you may want to try layering up and give it a try on a clear day? The issue is not temperature- it's road conditions, weather, visibility etc, as I'm sure you're aware, as an experienced rider yourself. I will ride in the cold, as long as it is safe to do so for myself and other road users. Heavy rain in the summer is more dangerous.

Meanwhile Canadians will ski, sled, snomobile and camp in extreme weather conditions, and that's somehow acceptable (people die all the time from these high risk activities).

For your entertainment and inspiration, there's a British couple that crossed Canada on Honda C90 in the winter:

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

It's currently -17 with a -24 windchill before you add movement, travel is not recommended on hwy 2 around red deer. All the roads are covered in snow and ice. Our twp road has just been a sheet if ice for 2 weeks since the wind polished it up nicely for us. I have to wear ice cleats to stay upright walking the snow monster. My bike will stay tucked up in the warm until spring. Winter is a sad state of affairs.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...481d8b980c.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...5a24e82621.jpg

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

I'm amused by your bonkers crusade but I find there are typically three days a year when it's infeasible to drive in a 4x4 truck. There must be many more for a motorcycle.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

this sounds par for the course for Canada

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

i don't think you understand how Canada works. The Federal government legislates the minimum requirements for Provinces who can then set up more stringent laws provided they cover the Federal requirements. Ontario had decided that exchanging a license is not enough for a British rider. That's it.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

We've got some info from both sides (MTO Ontario and GB DVLA). GB has their act in order, but it seems that Ontario doesn't have clue and cannot actually point to any legislation, order or agreement to support their claims.

This is what I've found so far:
1. DVLA has confirmed that UK Legislation deems all 10 Canadian Provinces and 3 territories to be grouped as one, for the purposes of licence exchange, and includes car, motorcycle and moped (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1641/made). In other words, the UK will recognise and exchange Canadian car, motorcycle and moped licences, regardless of the province it was issued by. The UK likewise recognises licence exchange with all former dominions (Australia, NZ, South Africa, Hong Kong etc) on a national basis.

2. As motor vehicle licensing is devolved to the Provinces in Canada, this is why there are specific exchange agreements in place between the DVLA and (some?) provinces. The DVLA provided me with a 2004 agreement with Ontario, for car (including moped).

3. Although motorcycle was not specifically mentioned in the 2004 agreement, it was also not excluded. There may be older agreements pertaining to motorcycle. I am waiting on further clarification.

4. MTO Ontario did not provide me with the above agreement. Rather, they provided me with an internal guidance note for their staff. This note says GB motorcycle licences are not recognised (but experience is). However this internal guidance may be an erroneous interpretation by someone at the MTO, as they refuse to provide any formal documentation to support their claim (unlike the DVLA, which has provided documentary evidence).

Conclusion so far: The UK will recognise car, motorcycle and moped licences for exchange, issued by any Canadian province or territory. In Canada, it depend upon the province. Most English speaking provinces recognise UK car, motorcycle and moped entitlements. MTO's website claims that "motorcycle" is excluded because it is "not mentioned in the exchange agreement" and has published guidance accordingly excluding motorcycles from a UK to Ontario exchange, but this may be an erroneous interpretation or misunderstanding on their part. Moped is definitely included, although Ontario has been denying this, so it is a partial win.

PS. I request constructive responses, rather than some of the rather rude statements made by some people here. Specifically, do you know how I can get more information from MTO, Ontario?

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

You could try reaching out to your local MLA to see if they can help though arguing that something is included because it's not specifically excluded seems like a weak argument.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Thanks for your suggestion. The premise of my argument isn't that it's not excluded; it is merely an observation. The issue is that the UK recognises Ontario motorcycle licences, but Ontario isn't reciprocating for British licences. Both sides claim that they are acting on the same reciprocal agreement. The UK has provided proof to support their claim, but Ontario refuses to back this up with proper documentation. It is also clear that mopeds are deemed part of the car licence exchange and I will be fighting for this.

I need the MTO to give me some proof to confirm their version. Only when it is absolutely clear that motorcycles aren't included, I can write to ministers to update the law to bring it in line with the UK side, and in line with most other Canadian provinces.

I will report back here as to the outcome.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

I am offering no specific help on your question, but some anecdotes from my experience.
- switching my motorcycle license from Ontario to the UK was easy, just paperwork
- switching my car license was a bit more complicated... the UK asked for proof that I had passed my test on a manual transmission. By some sheer fluke, I actually did. I rang Ontario something or another to see if they recorded this information on the test result. The reply "no, we don't. But you know, we get a LOT of queries from people in the UK about that'. I had a suggestion for her.
- the UK would then only license me for an automatic car and it took a couple decades to get around to taking and passing a manual xmission

On passing the motorcycle license test... my Ontario experience involved weaving through a few cones in a car park, followed by an unaccompanied ride around the block. I assume the key pass criteria was coming back alive, which I did manage to do. In the UK, even though I had transferred my license, I decided to do the test anyway for a refresh. It was all rather more comprehensive including a ride accompanied by someone communicating with me through a radio headset! To be fair, there were a few decades between the tests, so I expect the Ontario test may have got a bit more rigorous.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Just contact your MPP. They will have an office somewhere in the constituency.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...d9fddda3c8.jpg
I know it's Alberta but this is why i don't ride year round.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Just to report the outcome here, the DVLA provided me with a copy of the actual reciprocal exchange agreement with Ontario, which includes cars and mopeds (as moped were bundled with cars at the time). There isn't a separate agreement for motorcycles, but the DVLA (in spite of any agreement or lack of) unilaterally recognises car and motorcycle license from any Canadian province or territory. In this instance, it is Canadian provinces like Ontario that are lagging behind.

Ontario didn't respond to my request for a moped license at the very least (as per their own agreement). I can easily upgrade moped to full by taking the test and potentially claim insurance savings for previous driving history, otherwise one has to pay thousands of dollars in course fees, tests and extra insurance.

So this is good news for Canadians moving to the UK but not vice-versa.

And certainly I agree that motorcycle riding isn't 12 months in Canada but it can easily be 7-8 which is good enough and can be a boon for those working in outdoor/seasonal trades like me.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Does seem harsh it's a one way street rather than two way. :( I have my bike licence aswell and we may be moving over. May need to consider punting my bike stuff then in advance as have no inclination going through various courses and tests again after spending a bit on direct access here.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

Depends where you're moving to. Most provinces do exchange a British motorcycle license. It's only Ontario and Quebec that make things difficult for motorcycle licencing and (very high) insurance. Alberta doesn't exchange but insurance is cheaper there and so the (apparently easy) course will pay for itself. BC is the most friendly in terms of exchange and insurance. So don't throw in the towel just yet!

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

if you come to Alberta you can either 'challenge the exam' without additional lessons or you could do a course in as little as a week Mon to Fri evening's, test on Saturday.

Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario
 

MC insurance in BC is no bargain, we pay around $1900 a year for each bike. In BC you can do an exchange so long as you have held a full MC license for 2+years.