ramac

I have read all of the posts, and I speak from experience (thats not to say that the other posts do not ). We moved here 6.5 years ago on a salary of $44,000. Our children were 6 and 3 at the time and therefore I stayed at home. We do not live in Toronto, however, we spent the next 4 years getting out of debt. We came debt free, bought a house with a decent deposit, and sorry to say $44,000 pa left us struggling.
Please be realistic . We had friends at the same time who had a house rent free with 3 children in Toronto and he earned $38,000. They went home, they never felt so poor in their lives.
I am not saying it can't be done, as we managed to come through, but it is a big struggle and it will have an effect on your relationship.

nfitz

Uh, yeah ... that's why it says "Toronto" in my posts. I did make the assumption that if one wasn't subject to federal tax, one wouldn't be subject to provincial tax. Personally when I didn't used to be subject to federal tax, I would normally stop paying provinical tax at a lower rate than federal tax ... now that was the 1980's ... but I think it still holds. Though the Ontario health premium might screw that assumption up. I didn't invent the $449 number, that came from the November 2005 federal budget papers that I referenced. That would be net of course ... tax paid minus various credits (child, GST, etc.). Don't forget I noted there would be Tuition credits as well which can be lucrative ... and perhaps I'm wrong with that on a post-doc ... so toss in say $1000 a year for tax, federal and provincial. 3 dependents is a pretty good deduction remember!

The $250 was food and sundries. I didn't say clothe. Oddly enough, the unhealthiest crap doesn't seem to be cheap ... trust me, I eat out enough to know this! But I know what myself and my partner spend a month in groceries, and I typically buy the expensive stuff. I would assume if one person was at home with the kids, that they would be a lot more efficient than I ... less prepared food, more basic cooking. It's hard to find a good reference for costs... though I note that this April 2005 US report has about US$50 a week for what is the average spent per child just for food. Perhaps $250 is on the low side. Anyone got a good comparison to what general grocery costs are in Canada versus the UK? It's a bit cheaper here, so if one wanted to be generous, one could take
what one spends in the UK, convert it to CAN$, and it wouldn't be an underestimate.

I'm assuming one would be shopping in the Goodwill and such, and getting hand-me-downs from other parents, as most parents do.

??? that's a very odd statement, the neighbourhood I'm in is full of children. Happy looking, plump, children. Don't think the neighbourhood iI'm in s that gritty ... always look nice when I see it on TV - there's a TV show filmed here (there's a few actually) http://www.degrassi.tv/index.jsp . Anyway the question was, is that enough money to live on? Plenty of people live on that kind of money ... perhaps not those surfing the Internet apparently though ...

Immigrant? I don't think a 1-year post-doc makes an immigrant. I don't think my statements are outrageous at all; it's right out of the federal governments own papers. Trust me, if there was a mistake in those tables, don't you think there would have been no end of Harping about it by the Tories in the last election. It's your comments here that are outrageous. I put out the numbers, and asked for comments. Comments, not condemnations. If you don't like the numbers, why don't you run $40,000 through your 2005 T1 with 3 dependents and all the relevent deductions and see what comes out on the bottom line, before you start challenging the numbers.

Nick

nfitz

Ah, interesting. I'm surprised they would find it that tough if not paying any rent. No car, no rent, and with 3 kids at that wage, not much to pay in taxes.

It's so tough to say what one can live on. What feels like poverty to one, is wealth to another. I know a single-mum who earns minimum wage, and doesn't even get full hours most week. Less than $15,000 a year. I'm amazed at how well she manages with what little she has ... and yes she does get some assistance, though only for dental/medical expenses at that wage. She's paying about $700 for a 2-bedroom, and can't afford a car. If she was to have $20,000 a year she starts putting savings in the bank! And no, I wouldn't want to live like that for a long time ...

Nick

ramac

They had to purchase a car as he was needed it for his position, which cost them way back 5 years ago, approx $250 plus insurance (remember he was not Canadian which meant insurance was approx $400 PER MONTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!
Something to remember for new immigrants!!

nfitz

Here's a good reference. 2004 Low-Income Cut-Offs (LICOs pseudo-poverty lines) for Canada from Statistics Canada: http://www.ccsd.ca/factsheets/fs_lico04_bt.htm

For large city, 4 people, $37,791 (before tax). Up about $2,300 from 2001 http://www.ccsd.ca/factsheets/fs_lic01.htm. So $40,000 is above the poverty line, barely. Now, one could still debate what this means ... some will claim that this level is too low. Others, in particular the Frasier Institute, claim that for 4 people in a large urban area " the LICO measure is too high to be believable as a threshold of impoverishment." http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared...sNav=pb&id=216 ... though I confess I seldom think the Frasier Institute is correct ... they are a right-wing think tank.

So again, $40,000 a year does seem to be livable in Toronto ... barely ... and I think there's enough description in this thread, for the original poster (if we haven't completely scared her away!) to figure out exactly where that puts one in the scheme of things. I think the secret to making it work is not having a car - the money pits they are!

Nick

nfitz

Ouch! $4,800 a year. Ontario car insurance can be quite extreme for someone who doesn't have an insurance history! Or a couple of accidents! Can't get a car for $250 these days ... $750 is pretty much the minimum with the emissions testing that is now required for sale. And I wouldn't have thought that was possible if it weren't for my partner spending that much on a clunker ... and damn it if she didn't drive it, a lot, for 2 years, with only a couple of hundred of maintenance ... it humbled me as I spend more on regular routine maintenance for my recent Civic than her entire clunker cost her over that 2-year period, before it went belly-up! Insurance cost her more than anything, but was only about $900 a year or so (absolute minimum legal coverage).

Nick

Chipotle

Dear All and Novocastrian

A year or two on the borderline of the poverty line is far too long if there are children involved, even if future job prospects are good or even excellent.

Postdoc fellow will be so busy you'll hardly see them at all and so you need to make sure spouse and children have enough money to make do AND compensate for the absent parent. Some occasional "treats" like going to cinema and eating out in a cheap, family-friendly cafe and such things that other people do on a regular basis make a HUGE difference to a parent who stays at home with the kids 100% of the time ( I know from experience!)

Happy spouse at home makes happy kids. Happy spouse and kids make
happy postdoc. Happy postdoc works hard and achieves great things.

May I suggest having a look at www.sabbaticalhomes.com. It is a website for academics who need/offer housing all over the world and would rather have another academic taking over. You may (or may not) find a place to rent with prices below the market average or even a house-sitting place! Bestest of luck


Chipotle

dbd33

Yes. It was a counter to Novocastrian's booze, ciggies, etc.

dbd33

I'm not sure why the assumption is made that a post-doc position is for a finite period. My understanding is that research goes on until the funding is cut off or the team discovers some new medicine or technique and retires on the royalties. Certainly my mate from the pub has been post-doc-ing here for three years and elsewhere around the world before that. One thing one can do as a post doc is to avoid taxes completely by signing the right forms, the problem being that, if one subsequently wants to become a PR, the back taxes have to be paid.

Anyway, as suggested above, a couple of years of not being fed isn't something children can shrug off in later life. As regards the comparison with living poor in London, being poor abroad is more problematic than being poor at home as the support network is missing, one can never, for example, leave the children with relatives, a babysitter always has to be paid.

babyblue

I feel i should add to this thread again!

I have been taking home less than $1800 per month.
I have to pay $800 for rent,do laundry weekly,pay bills,pay for sons soccer and school things,buy food and clothing.
As others have said! "It depends what you class as living". I am surviving and getting by. Oh yes!... I would love to earn more and eventually this will happen(for those that know me, will understand)
My son does not go with out anything. He has love, warmth,food and oh yes! the latest computer..And his passion for his soccer, (teenager!)

But on the serious side, It is all about how you manage money and what is important to you personally. I will live out of charity stores and i see no shame in this at all(one mans rags is another mans riches)

I think about those that have been in major disasters and it puts it all into perspective. Money can be the root of all evil but it is how you root it!

I will get a nice house and i will get the better job because i believe i can do it. You never miss what you never had and i think this is one question to be asked here. What are you accustomed too?

What about the wife doing day care in the home or any other type of home work? Or a part time job to bring in extra cash? I always did this when my kids were smaller.

You can make it! Or you can give up!
Another thing to remember is that most apartment rentals have utilities included(gas,water,hydro). Most houses don't, therefor you have added expense.
I just wanted to add from my personal experience. This may not be for you but for me.... I believe things will get better.
good luck.

flashman

You have been given a terrific opportunity.


I am a senior and my wife and I are planning to downsize. We are in the process clearing out our home and you wouldn't believe the amount of crap that we have collected over the years.

We probably should have been more diligent years ago and followed a more simple lifestyle.


Just Google on "Voluntary Simplicity" and see what you get.

ray1968

I would suggest 40k is not enough - unless you want to struggle
after tax 40 k is approx $2600 a moth - I month transit $100 , rent $1200 , cable TV + phone - min $65

Groceries + for newborn diapers etc - $600 a month

maybe for 2 people it would be ok - but with kids you have to feed them and clothe them and when they are growing up those clothes don't last very long

I'd say $60 k min would be required IMHO and even then it would still be tight

Novocastrian

Well, that's a decision they have to face for themselves. I don't know what field the post-doc is in, but $40k is actually above par for many places. I agree kids make a huge difference, but having them early (assuming a normal career trajectory) was their decision.

Novocastrian

Yeah, I know some people like that. Perennial post-doc-ing seems to be just what some people are looking for, but I'm willing to wager that your drinking buddy doesn't have a wife and 2 kids?

Rolling 1-year contracts for soft money research jobs are very common in the States (where they can often be quite lucrative) and increasingly so in the UK. They are less common (but exist) in Canada, which I think is for the better. Otherwise these people are easily exploited.

dbd33

Well no and those of his associates who do have children are supported by the other spouse having a regular job, non-commercial research is something of a vanity position. I suppose one could argue that the problem here is that the thread starter ought not to have children and stay in such a low paying job. I don't know if the sort of skills needed for this post-doc position are of any value outside academia but, unless he's actually going to cure cancer, one might think it more responsible to take a job as a bus driver or school teacher, something that pays a living wage.