little

Hi,
My hubby and I are planning to be in Toronto for next year for a post-doc. He will be making about 40,000 $ before taxes. Is that enough for a family of 4 (i.e. two parents, one 4/5 year old and a newborn infant)? We can live near the subway system and make due without a car, we're looking to rent a two bedroom. Health costs through the university.

Also, does anyone know whether, as non-residents, we'll have to pay for kindergarten (senior) for our son?

dbd33

I would not like to try that. Suppose it's $3,000 month after taxes and whatnot:

Rent $1200
Fares $300

Half gone and no one has eaten. I'm not sure what age children start school but if the older one is not old enough for that then daycare/kindergarten will be $500 more. Academia is alright if you have a rich wife.

(Note all numbers are "best case" a $1200 two bedroom and a $500 daycare will have long queues).

Tangram

From my research I would say it was extremely tough if not breadline especially around TO and GTA.

Novocastrian

I think dbd is being a bit pessimistic. Certainly it'd be tight on $40k for a family of four, but I think it can be done. If 4/5 yr old is the current age, then he should be old enough to start school when you get here. Anyway, why would you want to pay for child care if you're not working? $300 / month for transit seems a bit high and I think you can find a 2 bedroom for a bit less than the $1200 number.

britishvixen21

My hb makes around $40,000 before taxes and we get by, I wouldnt say we were well off but we do get by on a short budget, However we live in a bachelor apartment paying very low rent, we dont have kids to feed, cloth and provide for and we get by. I think $40,000 for a family of four with a newborn is a bit of stretch.

dbd33

I base my opinion that this would be a desperate struggle on numerous conversations with a post-doctoral researcher from the UK who is attached to a university in Toronto. He has a room in a shared house and a bicycle. Admittedly he has a taste for interesting imported beers but he's far from affluent even living in a studentish manner. I've often asked "what do researchers do if they want to buy a house or have a family", to which the answer is "the spouse supports the family".

It might be a good idea to start a thread on GU (www.guardian.co.uk) with the same title as used here (either under Advice or USA). That might get a response from people in similar situations.

Poverty is tricky to measure and all analysis has an agenda. Nonetheless using Statistics Canada's measure, in 2002, 4 people living on $36,000 would have been in poverty :

http://www.socialplanningtoronto.org...ics%20html.htm

Of course, if you use the Fraser Institute's figures, four people who are not members of the Fraser Institute, can live on tuppence three farthings per decade.

The $300 for transit assumed buying tokens in bulk, it may be that diligent use of a family pass could cut that a bit but that would have robbed me of the use of the phrase "half gone".

nfitz

$1200 for a two-bedroom shouldn't be that tough. I've got a half-decent 3-bedroom house (without the basement) near the subway on a streetcar line for $1350, and walking distance to a large grocery store. I'm quite sure I could find a 2-bedroom for less than $1200 in my neighbourhood (Coxwell and Gerrard). And one doesn't need daycare if one has in infant! Adult monthly bus passes are just about $100 a month. Children under 2 are free. And children under 12 are 60¢ a ride. I'd be surprised if you hit $300 a month on transit! Now $300 a month on the gas bill perhaps, the way natural gas rates have gone up (seriously, allow at least $200 a month for utilities, not including phone, cable, etc.).

But quite livable I think, if you are willing to be thrifty! I know single-parents that survive on much less!

Nick

Athome

I think the question is not CAN you survive on $40k, it is can YOU survive on it. That of course depends on your expectations and needs. Those vary by individual.

There are families of 4 surviving on less than half that in Toronto. I wouldn't want to be one of them but they do it. There are other families who feel they are struggling on $80,000. It really is a how long is a piece of string question.

Novocastrian

Good points. Bear in mind that we are talking about a short term postdoc here. It's worth suffering a bit of privation for a couple of years if your husband has a realistic prospect of moving on to a tenure track position immediately or soon afterwards.

babyblue

well!
i have done this on less for three years.
I am only getting half that and i pay rent,bills and keep my children. It is all about how wise you are with money.
It would be great to be more comfortable but it is not always possible.
Are you bringing any cash with you? this could help get you through...
Are you planning on working?


I rent a two bedroom for $800 in ajax!
This all depends on where you want to live, expenses to travel etc..

dbd33

OK, not $300, 2 passes at $100 + $25 for the under 13 year old = $225.
My $1200 for rent assumed a building where utilities are included. Half a house would be cheaper but not when you add in the gas and electricity.

nfitz

Any family that thinks they are struggling on $80,000 needs a major reality check!

Given that in this case, they aren't even planning to have a car, I'd say the string needn't be that long.

Kindergarten BTW is free. There's an information page from the school board at http://www.tdsb.on.ca/_site/ViewItem...329&pageid=256
Kindergarten is a two-year program now in Toronto. Children born in 2002 start Junior Kindergarten in September 2006, and children born in 2001 start Senior Kindergarten.

Nick

dbd33

Do you mean the No Frills on Coxwell just above Eastwood or the BJ Supermarket ? I can't think of another one within easy walking distance.

dbd33

From your kindergarten link:

To register your child the school will need:

proof of age, such as a birth certificate or passport
proof of citizenship, such as a birth certificate, passport, Record of Landing, or Permanent Resident Card
proof of immunization
proof of custody
proof of address, such as lease agreement or utility bill with your name and address.

I don't think the thread starter will be able to meet requirement #2.

nfitz

No Thrills, it's decent enough. Though if you're a few blocks further east, there is the Loblaws and another one next to it at Leslie and Eastern. And if you are few blocks further west there is a Valuemart or something at Danforth and Woodbine. And then just west of that past Main is a Sobey's. And if you were bit further south than that, there is that very large Loblaws on Gerrard. And I've been known to cart in a few groceries on the subway from the Valuemart (or is it a No Thrills) at the Bay subway station, not to mention the Loblaws near Broadview station. It's not difficult to find somewhere near a grocery store if it's an issue. Though I frequently see people with bags of groceries jumping on the Streetcar outside the No Frills.
Hmm, interesting. I've never heard of anyone not being to attend a school if they were lawfully in the country. And when I was in grad school, there were all sort of foreign students who had kids in the regular school system. There's more information at:
http://www.tdsb.on.ca/_site/ViewItem...313&pageid=241 where it notes that "Children must be Canadian citizens, permanent residents or refugee claimants".

Perhaps best contacting TDSB for clarification at the number listed on that page (Others should contact the International Student Services and Admissions Office at 416-395-8109 or 416-395-9618.).

Hmm, there's a bit of information here on the University of Toronto's website:
http://www.isc.utoronto.ca/visasimm.html#spouse noting that "If your child/children will be attending school, apply for a Study Permit for them.". No information about cost of education though.

Nick