IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Hi :)

Haven't been here for a while ;)

Wanted to ask those of you who are there if the IT industry, and specifically networking, is as depressed/munted/poorly as it seems? Put resume/CV up on Monster a couple of weeks ago and so far have had over 60 responses including responses from Spain, Holland and Sweden. That same resume actively sent to about 50 Canadian recruitment agents, headhunters, etc, garnered one response.

Speaking to a couple of people who work in IT over there they were nothing but doom and gloom about it, wages low, employers asking the earth because they can.

Any of you guys have any opinions? Is this true or was the guy telling me that more from a 'Stay away from our jobs' point of view?

Thanks :)

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Hi

We have a friend who moved to Alberta 4 mths ago and got a job within 3 weeks as a software developer.Apparently CVs are not the way to go in Canada you need a resume and go round meeting people and selling yourself.I also spoke to a canadian friend in Calgary who said the IT industry is good at the moment.

Cheers
Debbie

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Hi,

I'm aware that resumes are the way to go, I sent one rather than a CV :)

Interesting that meeting people, etc, is apparently the way to go, mildly disconcerting that ability to kiss behind is an issue in getting jobs rather than purely skills and experience :(

I should mention I was asking specifically about network engineers rather than software developers. I know that software developers are in demand and apparently well loved, however my particular bit of the industry appears in strife there as the astounding lack of a response to my resume there compared to Europe suggests :(

I should have been more specific in the thread title, anyone have any idea about the score for people who work in networking rather than programming / system administration?

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Hi,

The point I was trying to make was that the approach to getting a job in Canada is very different to the approach in Europe. Sending a CV (or a Resume with a covering letter) is not very likely to receive any responses whether you are a Network Engineer or a Software Developer. Canadian employers do not generally recruit in this way, so you can't really use it as an indication of the state of the market.

Going out and meeting prospective employers has nothing to do with 'kissing behind' and everything to do with selling yourself (as well as your skills) in a manner that doesn't waste anyones time. If you have ever interviewed anyone on a technical level, you will know that what is written on a CV is not necessarily a clear indication of the applicant's true abilities.

No-one can really give you a clear indication of the state of the market, as only a small number of Canadian jobs are advertised on job sites such as monster, etc... (most jobs are filled by people who turn up at the building actively selling themselves and their skills) They will only be able to tell you what their experiences have been, which will be worthless because it will depend on how much effort They put in to getting a job, and of course, how good they are at what they do.

Don't get disheartened with the lack of response, it really doesn't mean anything!

Cheers

Debbie

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I have enquired with a group of Canadian IT professionals on this matter as this is totally at odds with what I've heard before.

While I understand the value of contacts turning up at a building wanting to see a member of HR wastes far more time than a simple resume submission and is from what I've been told likely to solicit the same reaction it is here, being escorted from the building at worst, at best having your resume taken from you and likely sent to the round filing drawer.

EDIT: I should also mention, as my signature suggests, that indicating I'm available makes recruiters chase me. I'm confused as to why I should have to run around selling myself in Canada. Last time I checked companies look for staff, that way they get a good view of the market, and can persue the best talent. Your way suggests going door to door looking for jobs and implies a fair amount of desperation along with a sense that someone should be grateful for getting a job in Canada in this field.

Call me odd but I am not grateful for my current position, I do my job well and am good value for money to my employer. Recruiters persuing me here suggests that I have valuable skills which aren't that easy to find.

If Canadian employers have it so easy that they have no need to advertise a lot of positions as qualified candidates just appear at their buildings I have evidently badly underestimated how skilled and experienced Canadians are in my field and others. Indeed if this friend of yours who has an occupation which is listed as being critically understaffed in Canada has to take the approach of going door to door I am very scared of my job prospects.

I've been informed that Canadian employers use resumes from previous applicants and use agencies to pre-screen. That's where a lot of the jobs that aren't advertised publicly disappear. This is just common sense using existing resource or having a filter in the way. Employing people who turn up at the door seems a very very weird way of doing business.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

A chap advised, same approach I've been taking:

This is exactly what I've been doing. Evidently applying in person doesn't make quite the impression you think it does, and most of the hidden recruiting is via agencies and stored resumes.

I should mention I don't have a degree, although I'd hope that degrees in Canada have a similar value to here in my field, not much, and practical experience is king.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I can only talk to the Calgary IT market, but Network people are "ten a penny" here. Many of the technical colleges offer the certification courses and actual Network jobs are highly sought after/prized.

The real demand is for Software Developers and Business Analysts.

Good luck in your search.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Hi,

Well, we have a stalemate :) Everyone that I have spoken to has said to use the approach I suggested, and they have had no problem finding work.

I'm not sure about not having a degree, I know they are valued more in Canada than they are in the UK and it may be a factor used in the selection process regardless of whether it is a requirement for the job or not, which may be why you are not getting many responses.

Are you in the UK? How did you get sufficiaent points without a degree?

Cheers

Jez

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

If you aren't already in Canada, don't even bother as companies won't be interested until you are actually living there and available. Unless you have a very rare specialty that is in high demand, they will ignore you for someone who already lives there and can start tomorrow.

Most companies will not search for people since there are hundreds of people applying for every opening. Enough come to them that they don't have to bother.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Hi Ignition

I was recently speaking to someone that was involved in IT recruitment in a growing IT company - they will IGNORE any resume from someone outside of Canada. It is just binned.

They might look at someone outside of the Province - but they have to be something special.

But I know that when they advertise they get around 200 to 500 resumes (!) However, some of the resumes will appear within minutes of it being posted on a jobs board.

So now can you see the appeal of networking for a compnay, they don't want to trawl through stacks of resumes, they would rather have the recommendation of a current member of staff etc.


Clare

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Thanks for the info Clare, just proves it is as bad as I've been told. Saying that though the advertising for my colleagues brings in tons of resumes as well, 99% of them being completely unsuitable, which is the issue. Most of those resumes will be from people who have pieces of paper, no experience and no real clue what they are doing as soon as it leaves the textbook.

Networking is an ongoing thing, I do it constantly :)

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

There is the problem, certification courses look pretty but don't make people suitable for employment in anything bar the starter roles on their own.

Here the network jobs are chased in a big way as well, hundreds of resumes are received, 99% or more are no good. Sadly the industry I work in is considered a cash cow where a piece of paper will set you up for good. Not surprised recruiters get fed up after the 200th CV from someone who fixes the office printer but has a Cisco certification from nightschool, or is most enthusiastic but doesn't know a Cisco switch from a light switch.

The bummer is if the jobs are so highly prized clearly there have never been that many meaning there aren't that many people who have actual experience.

Thanks for the input though, much appreciated. Again confirms what I was told, even if it certainly isn't what I wanted to hear.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Anyone know what the market is like for Project Managers?

I have recently got my PRINCE2 Practitioner and have several years of project experience too, mainly in infrastructure implementations.

Also is Linux taking off OK in Canada?

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Ignition,

From my experience it is indeed harder to find any kind of IT job in Canada. However I'm basing my opinion from my experience in Vancouver. My impression is that Alberta is the easiest place to find work of any kind. I have 5 years of technical support experience in the UK. I've found there are far fewer jobs posted here and the competition is fierce. I did manage to get interviews by applying to jobs on monster.ca but the response was nothing like when I applied for jobs on jobserve in the UK. Like many I ended up doing tech support in a call center. I earned a fraction of my salary in the UK. There, I met people who had previously worked as programmers, managers, some had CCNA and CCNP, etc. People were stabbing each other in the back for a few cents raise!

Most positions demand at least a 2 year computer related degree, several years experience and various certs before they'll take you seriously. I don't know why it was easier in the UK but some have said the in Canada there is an overemphasis on certification and degrees here-probably because the competion is fierce and employers need a standard to weed resumes out.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I very much doubt that that's true of the computer business. I think the GTA (financial hub of the country) and Ottawa (the feds) have most of the computers followed by south-west Ontario (all those insurance companies in Kitchener and London), Montreal (CGI is one the world's larger outsourcers), Quebec City (their government is incredibly overpowered for computers) and then Calgary (quangoes and oil companies, though I found that an awful lot of oil related computing is done in the US).

I expect there are personal computer elsewhere but in terms of large scale IT employment I think Ontario is pretty much it for Canada.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

"Most computers" does not necessarily translate to "most jobs". The areas you mention undoubtedly have many large companies, each likely to be running large mainframes, but there is also a large pool of people to choose from.

If was an immigrant looking for a job in I.T. here, I would be looking for an area where there were many new projects starting up. I would think it's very difficult for an immigrant to get a "dead man's shoes" position, but easier to get on a project team doing new development.

With the oil and gas companies making huge profits, there are many new projects starting up. Shell, BP, Encana, Husky, TCPL, Talisman are to my knowledge looking for development and project management people here. These companies all have large IT depts in Calgary.

There aren't many mainframes in Calgary and as I came with a mainframe background and my analysis knowledge was in investment banking, neither made me highly sought after here.

But a 6 month re-training course in OO A&D and I got a job very easily.

I'm now working on a multi-million dollar 3 tiered client-server application, which will run as a smart client on the users desktops.

For a variety of interesting projects, I would recommend joining a Consultancy.

The good thing about Calgary (and probably the other IT areas of Canada) is that IT is relatively highly paid.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Exactly how the UK used to be before they realised that experience is the king and a lot of the talent doesn't have these because they've been too busy actually doing the job in question.

I'll give it time. I know that increasingly experience is becoming king, and time is something I certainly have.

Due to recent job move my resume is looking more impressive these days anyway, and will improve a fair bit more soon.

Thank you all for your time and input, it's greatly appreciated :)

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

If 'time is something you certainly have', you should use some of it to get a degree, it can only improve your chances...and give you enough points to actually immigrate anyway.

I think you are in for a big shock because you are assuming that people with degrees don't have experience and the people with the experience don't have any qualifications. That may be true to a certain extent in the UK where degrees are not given much credence apart from in entry level graduate jobs, but it is not the case everywhere.

Good Luck!

Cheers

Jez

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Not quite :) I was just referring to some recruiters' habit of requiring a degree whatever else is on the page, and ignoring those without one.

In the IT industry here for sure there were a lot of cases where people were hired because they had pieces of paper and found to not be able to do the job. Still is the case to an extent, graduates are hired to do jobs they can't really do that well because they have the bits of paper that impress HR and ask for much less cash than people who've been in the industry a while.

On the other hand of course there are plenty of people who have the best of both worlds. My point was really that degrees, etc, should open doors to gaining experience and learning the job, not be the be all and end all in rating someone's skills.

I certainly didn't intend to give the impression that the two are mutually exclusive, and can only apologise if this was the case :)

Thanks.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I do agree entirely; a degree should only be a requirement to fill an entry level graduate job. Unfortunately, in a market where there are far more people applying for jobs than there are jobs available, the recruiters have to set additioinal requirements to cut the number of resumes down to a managable amount.

Coupled with the fact that most of this filtering is done by non-technical HR people, the degree is an easy thing to filter on (as all the really clever people have degrees :D ), the next level of filtering is usually on keywords (technical buzz words).

Only when the number of resumes is down to a managable amount does anyone start looking at your skills and experience.

Regardless of whether we, as technical people, think this is the right way to go about it (obviously it isn't, as there are a large number of people in the market place who can talk the talk but not walk the walk!), it is a fact of business that we have to do everything we can just to get into a position where we can prove we are as good as we say we are.

You need a degree, or you need to follow the approach of going round to businesses selling yourself, as I mentioned earlier.

Of course, you could go for the easy approach and go contracting :D

Cheers

Jez

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

Indeed. I would think the thing to do would be to find a job and then move to it, regardless of location.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I can understand that in Canada you can hire 10 CCNAs for a penny, this is happening worldwide. But, although I am not living in Canada yet, I think the situation for CCNP certified should be different. Almost anyone can get a CCNA certification, but normally for getting the CCNP you will be required to have a deeper understanding in Networking and some work experience.

Once I heard someone said about the status of Cisco professionals in USA:
CCNA without experience: No Job
CCNA with experience or CCNP without experience: You might get a job
CCNP with experience: Eventually, you will get a job
CCIE: You have THE job.

Anyone knows if this classification is different for Cisco professionals in Canada?

Best regards

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I suggest you take to heart what JezHarper said in post #20 and what dbd33 said in post #21. If you can bite the bullet and accept what they said, Canada might be a suitable country for you, and you might be a suitable candidate for entry into Canada.

If not, I suggest you give up the idea of moving to Canada and save your energy for other battles. If I sound rude, I apologise. I'm honestly trying to save you from wasting your time.

One of the most useful research projects you could do would be to read all the messages that this person has posted.

While you're about it, have a good look at the "Moving back to the UK" forum. That's another invaluable source of information.

All the best in your endeavours.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I've certainly looked through a few of those posts.

I'm beginning to question whether it's all such a good idea after reading those kind of experiences.

Perhaps I should reconsider, the job situation for people in my field is so much better here. Here I'm heavily in demand.

Question is I guess do I want to give the guaranteed job and people chasing me up to risk going somewhere where at best I'm going to struggle and at worst I'm going to be overlooked not because of how good I would be at the job but because I don't know the right people.

IMHO that really is an appauling and unprofessional way to recruit for a professional level position. Reality can be like that I guess :(

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I am very sorry if I offend anyone with this post.

Ignition, do you think that you are gods gift to the technical world? Do you think that you should be treated differently in Canada because of what you think of yourself?

Please explain what you think is a more professional approach to recruitment. Would you tie up valueable technical resources trawling through resumes? That wouldn't be good enough because there are plenty of people who can write the right things on resumes but can't do the job, so you'd have to either interview or test each and every candidate. Is that your idea of more professional?

What you actually mean is that if people aren't willing to give you a job without you making the effort, they are making an unprofessional mistake because they aren't getting the very best Networking person who ever existed.

I can't imagine how Canada copes without you, afterall, they can only possibly have second grade idiots without your level of skill and experience.

You are an arrogant idiot, and I am grateful for the fact that without a degree you are not very likely to get into Canada even if you wanted to.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

A very good friend of mine has been here 4 years (ish) and been working in England for some of that time - he has no degree, therefore he was having problems breaking into the Canadian Experience milarky, especially in the competitive field of IT.

However, he has persevered (when most of us would have booked our one way flights back to Blighty) and is working over in Canada now. Part of the reason was that the family settled down so quickly and it was clearly an excellent move for the kids...

All the best, whatever you decide

Clare

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I came across those posts as well and was nodding my head as I read them as they concurred with my own IT job hunting experiences in Canada. I read that that poster wasn't totally committed to emigrating to Canada in the first place though. The bottom line is that you have to look much harder for the job you want and use a wider variety of job searching tactics than you would in the UK. And when you do find that cherished job it won't pay as much or have the same benefits. At the last IT company I worked for you had to work for a whole year before you were entitled to 2 weeks vacation! My partner just worked a weekend with no pay because it was expected and has only vague promises of taking the time off in lieue.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I've actually spent two years 'networking' with Canadians, that's how I nearly got hired last year. I networked by assisting them with some issues, we worked in similar industries and I had experience they didn't and could contribute, as they could assist me.

In addition to this I've faxed dozens of Canadian companies, used several resume forwarding services, visited Canada in person to make enquiries and attempted to place myself on several employment agencies books. This has to date cost me easily 4 figures. Any wonder I take perhaps a more cynical view than you consider appropriate?!

My apologies if I've offended you. Clearly I must be an idiot wondering how UK companies, etc, manage to recruit via submitted resumes, clearly they are making a mistake and should just recruit based on who walks through the front door or who is recommended by friends (always objective).

Oh I know they use agencies, etc, as filters, and take the time to review CVs / resumes. It takes 30 seconds to review a resume and identify if the person there is appropriate. Yes, UK employers get hammered with resumes as well, from people of all levels of experience. Employment agencies are all over people, that's a competitive market working the other way around. Rather than sitting back and waiting for the right people companies in the UK actively go after them, to the point of going international (recently a person in my department and a person in another department were hired, both from outside the EU).

If there are copious amounts of lying on resumes there are deeper issues there. Are you suggesting that lying is standard for a Canadian resume? Are you also suggesting that the policy of hiring people you know means that they get the right people 100% of the time? I fail to see where the potential to lie is any lower. I can happily fib about my experience in person or on paper if I so chose.

http://www.marwen.ca/s_corporate_employee-screening.asp must be busy.

Again I fail totally to see how it's any less of a waste of time seeing someone in person or filtering resumes. Someone with no idea what they are doing whose resume is complete fiction is every bit as capable of turning up at the front door as a professional with decades of experience.

I have never been hired through what you are advocating as the Canadian approach, my work in my professional life has never been considered anything but excellent, and my job searches have been fairly painless. Usually sending my resume out and updating on the relevant websites works.

A recruiter from Cisco has mailed me saying they've seen my resume and asking if I'm still interested in a career change. I didn't even have to go to a bar with him or visit the office in person demanding an interview. That'll be my fictional resume working its' magic again.

You're dead right I certainly should avoid Canada for now, evidently IT wise its' economy is completely screwed, if it were any other way the stories I've read on here wouldn't be happening. :(

It's worth me mentioning that the position that I did everything right for in Canada, bar an HR director blocking it after all his staff under him were happy, was unfilled for 3 months before he made his decision, and remained unfilled for another 2 - 3 months after.

Really competitive market where loads of qualified people persue very few jobs obviously if it takes 6 months to find someone appropriately skilled.

Thank you to the poster who recommended I look in more depth at people who've searched for IT positions, it has scared me off nicely. If we cut through the gack it's only this way because there aren't enough jobs in the field there for the people applying for them and too much BS in the selection. If this changes in the future I'll look at it all again.

In the meantime I'll stay arrogant and idiotic and read the stories on here of people far more qualified and experienced than me struggling like crazy to find any IT work let alone appropriate to their skills.

You're damned right I'm committed to getting where I want to be - Canada is the best place IMO in the world for so many reasons, however despite my extreme arrogance my wife refuses to let me do a menial $10 an hour job.

Best place in the world to raise my daughter probably, the job situation a mess.

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I would say yes, it's fairly standard. Employers read ads like how people should read descriptions on mls.ca. Growing up in Canada, it's drillled into you in 'how to write a resume' lessons in 'life class' in high school, how to "highlight your attributes" while "making the most of your weaknesses" - they don't say 'lie' but they might as well. Employers know and expect this.

Still, it sounds as though you've had a particularily unlucky time!

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I see, I wasn't aware of this.

I don't think I've been that unlucky, the only unlucky part being the frustration in the middle of last year. In the grand scheme of things my patience isn't always the greatest though.

Thanks for the input helps to put things into perspective a bit more. Not as bad here, out and out lying is rarely seen as it's usually fairly brutally exposed in interview, and a waste of your own and others' time.

Far from unknown though, as I've seen looking at my own manager going through the resumes on his desk. My personal favourite so far a guy who invented a job, sadly someone in this dept worked for that same company in that same department at the same time as this guy alledgedly did :D

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

You know, someone should really set up an 'ex-pats' IT company in Canada. If so many skilled people can't get hired by Canadian companies, then such a company should kick their ass.

I'd look into it myself, but I'm not a CEO-type :).

Re: IT Industry Canada - Munted?
 

I claimed to know a computer language I'd never seen. I did know other languages so on the first day on the job I rooted around for a sample program, stole the gist of it and started churning them out. After a while the firm laid off other people and gave me their work.

Later I learned that the boss didn't believe anything on the resumes anyway, he just hired people who had generous agents and dumped them if they didn't work out. That's the big advantage of contracting, the boss can dump you on any whim so he's not taking much of chance in giving you a shot. I'd be surprised if the government agencies here have ever hired a contractor on merit; they usually pick the one who comes with a free TV.