I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
Aug 10th 2009, 5:41 pm
#76
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Location: St. Albert. AB.
Posts: 3,286
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
Why so much bitching? Why is this a problem?
How in hell do you think you are going to integrate in your new homeland if you can't play by their rules?
Each country has its own standards and entry qualifications... no matter what you did beforehand, you just have to satisfy the needs of the country you now find yourself in. To say: "it's a total insult to have to sit an inferior exam" is to suggest you arrogantly think you come from a superior system to an inferior one. Even if you can prove it empirically, it's not exactly a great way to endear yourself to your new compatriots, eh?
How in hell do you think you are going to integrate in your new homeland if you can't play by their rules?
Each country has its own standards and entry qualifications... no matter what you did beforehand, you just have to satisfy the needs of the country you now find yourself in. To say: "it's a total insult to have to sit an inferior exam" is to suggest you arrogantly think you come from a superior system to an inferior one. Even if you can prove it empirically, it's not exactly a great way to endear yourself to your new compatriots, eh?
wow, thats a great philosophy on life.
Aug 10th 2009, 5:56 pm
#77
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Joined: Jul 2006
Location: St. Albert. AB.
Posts: 3,286
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
no one is asking for an easier ride, simply that their hard work elsewhere is recognized. another example, i worked recently with a paramedic trainee just arrived in canada. He had been a GP in south africa for 15yrs, yet NONE, no NONE of this was recognized, so here he was training to be a paramedic as that is all he could get.
Now i accept this is only his version of things and may be wildly inaccurate, but i have no reason not to take him at his word, and it does smack of the attitude exhibited here, and you think the emigrants are arrogant. ha.
Now i accept this is only his version of things and may be wildly inaccurate, but i have no reason not to take him at his word, and it does smack of the attitude exhibited here, and you think the emigrants are arrogant. ha.
Aug 10th 2009, 6:34 pm
#78
.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,185
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
no one is asking for an easier ride, simply that their hard work elsewhere is recognized. another example, i worked recently with a paramedic trainee just arrived in canada. He had been a GP in south africa for 15yrs, yet NONE, no NONE of this was recognized, so here he was training to be a paramedic as that is all he could get.
Now i accept this is only his version of things and may be wildly inaccurate, but i have no reason not to take him at his word, and it does smack of the attitude exhibited here, and you think the emigrants are arrogant. ha.
Now i accept this is only his version of things and may be wildly inaccurate, but i have no reason not to take him at his word, and it does smack of the attitude exhibited here, and you think the emigrants are arrogant. ha.
Aug 10th 2009, 6:48 pm
#79
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: South of Calgary
Posts: 13,374
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
This is not meant to be inflammatory, but I'm curious why a qualified and practicing GP would want to move to somewhere they'd have to take such a different career path? If they didn't know that would be the case then more research should have been in order or if they did, then accept it as an understanding of the conditions of moving.
Aug 10th 2009, 6:54 pm
#80
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Location: St. Albert. AB.
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Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
This is not meant to be inflammatory, but I'm curious why a qualified and practicing GP would want to move to somewhere they'd have to take such a different career path? If they didn't know that would be the case then more research should have been in order or if they did, then accept it as an understanding of the conditions of moving.
i have no idea, conversation was cut short before we got that far, he did mention family life and the fact that he did intend to requalify here, taking several years and having to work in the meantime.
Aug 10th 2009, 7:18 pm
#81
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,054
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
Quite, yet you take a stab about what ours is all about, above and below, and as usual have difficulty believing anything, as a previous conversation about mounties being moved across the country, of which we have yet another one working with us who after 3yrs at sherwood park was told he was moving to yellowknife, so left, yet this does not happen according to you. its this kind of blind faith and refusal to accept other things happen you may have no knowledge of i take issue with.
I never took a stab, was only demonstrating how a minor inconvenience is quite different from someone who has to spend years upgrading skills when there is no real need to.
I can only speak for e division - while local transfers are common, one such as you suggest (out of division) would surprise me to no end because of the hardships it might create. Happen I'm wrong - I've certainly never experienced it in the almost 11 years i've been here and would quit too. My understanding is that e division does not transfer out of division - unless one is requested.
are you seriously suggesting that not moving the body is unique to canadian sudden death investigation?!, clearly an example of your policing experience in canada only if it is, and perhaps further evidence of the point of this thread.
No i didn't for a minute to suggest it is unique, but understanding of the law is not the same - you have to know what your powers are - what if you were denied entry what is your authority to enter?, what about a search of a person? how about searching a person in cells prior to being placed in cells? These are all very simple tasks that can be taught in no time just about anywhere - but the law is completely different. I doubt that you knew anything about questioning an accused person here based on your trng in the uk
Incidentally I also lecture - courses offered through the cpc - had quite a few EPS officers on the last one.
and?
You used the word poor and I take exception with you suggesting that applies to me.
thats in your opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, either way it matters not to me, i find this is brought up when people are in the wrong and default to this kind of comment.
In the wrong? But how am I in the wrong? Why would I say that if i was i the wrong. It seems clear to me that you are bitter about something and have expressed in the past your views on policing as a vocation - not sure why you always seem to take such an adversarial tone.
I never took a stab, was only demonstrating how a minor inconvenience is quite different from someone who has to spend years upgrading skills when there is no real need to.
I can only speak for e division - while local transfers are common, one such as you suggest (out of division) would surprise me to no end because of the hardships it might create. Happen I'm wrong - I've certainly never experienced it in the almost 11 years i've been here and would quit too. My understanding is that e division does not transfer out of division - unless one is requested.
are you seriously suggesting that not moving the body is unique to canadian sudden death investigation?!, clearly an example of your policing experience in canada only if it is, and perhaps further evidence of the point of this thread.
No i didn't for a minute to suggest it is unique, but understanding of the law is not the same - you have to know what your powers are - what if you were denied entry what is your authority to enter?, what about a search of a person? how about searching a person in cells prior to being placed in cells? These are all very simple tasks that can be taught in no time just about anywhere - but the law is completely different. I doubt that you knew anything about questioning an accused person here based on your trng in the uk
Incidentally I also lecture - courses offered through the cpc - had quite a few EPS officers on the last one.
and?
You used the word poor and I take exception with you suggesting that applies to me.
thats in your opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, either way it matters not to me, i find this is brought up when people are in the wrong and default to this kind of comment.
In the wrong? But how am I in the wrong? Why would I say that if i was i the wrong. It seems clear to me that you are bitter about something and have expressed in the past your views on policing as a vocation - not sure why you always seem to take such an adversarial tone.
Aug 10th 2009, 7:32 pm
#82
Settled.
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: St. Albert. AB.
Posts: 3,286
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
No i didn't for a minute to suggest it is unique, but understanding of the law is not the same - you have to know what your powers are - what if you were denied entry what is your authority to enter?, what about a search of a person? how about searching a person in cells prior to being placed in cells? These are all very simple tasks that can be taught in no time just about anywhere - but the law is completely different.
No issue with that, that is retraining, different to the point in hand.
I doubt that you knew anything about questioning an accused person here based on your trng in the uk
big issue with this, i was seconded to the home office to train the trainers of the PEACE investigative interviewing model, which incidentally is now to be the new model to be used across canada, training already having started in the east, recent articles on it in police related press. another indictment of this kind of attitude unfortunately, we did interview people in the uk you know, and to a much higher standard than here, hence canada now taking on the UK model.
In the wrong? But how am I in the wrong? Why would I say that if i was i the wrong. It seems clear to me that you are bitter about something and have expressed in the past your views on policing as a vocation - not sure why you always seem to take such an adversarial tone
your take on it.
Aug 11th 2009, 5:24 am
#86
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 86
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
To the specific question of a South African GP would move to Canada despite a serious reduction in status at work.....
1) It is entirely possible that the person in question was given information about the transfer of qualifications/experience which turned out not to be the case.
2) Many South Africans have left SA, or will leave SA, or are trying to leave SA, to escape a one-party state (in effect) where crime in rampant and many feel unsafe in their own homes. If the choice is to be a paramedic (hardly scraping the breadline...) in Canada, or a doctor in any country where the chances of being mugged, robbed, burgled or murdered are high, there isn't much of a choice to make.
3) I can't speak for doctors, but at least in aviation pay levels for highly-trained professionals are woeful in SA.
I've had two employers in Canada - one (in aviation) genuinely wanted, at the top level anyway, to make proper use of experienced foreigners. The problem was on the "shop floor", where experienced foreigners were expected to act like ab-initio trainees and fell fowl of their colleagues (who preferred to think of themselves as superiors) when they didn't do so. No one explained that expectation at the outset, and had they done so much grief would have been avoided.
The other employer, a once-great Canadian company but now largely run by Americans following a merger with a smaller American rival, now has a culture of bullying, punitive action and confrontational employer/union relations.
Canada is a wonderful country, and emotionally it is almost as much home to me as it is to my Canadian wife. It does, however, have a somewhat fluffy image which doesn't necessarily ring true in the workplace. I've met and worked with plenty of Canadians who check their sense of humour at the door when they go to work. I've seen managers who have a much more inflated self-image, vis-a-vis non-management staff, than anyone in the UK would get away with.
That obviously isn't the whole story, but in some sectors of the workforce it seems that immigrants, regardless of experience, are expected to sit quietly, face the front and take whatever sh*t was once hurled at their Canadian superiors, even if they've already taken that sh*t in their home country, and especially if there wasn't any sh*t rolling downhill in their home country!
1) It is entirely possible that the person in question was given information about the transfer of qualifications/experience which turned out not to be the case.
2) Many South Africans have left SA, or will leave SA, or are trying to leave SA, to escape a one-party state (in effect) where crime in rampant and many feel unsafe in their own homes. If the choice is to be a paramedic (hardly scraping the breadline...) in Canada, or a doctor in any country where the chances of being mugged, robbed, burgled or murdered are high, there isn't much of a choice to make.
3) I can't speak for doctors, but at least in aviation pay levels for highly-trained professionals are woeful in SA.
I've had two employers in Canada - one (in aviation) genuinely wanted, at the top level anyway, to make proper use of experienced foreigners. The problem was on the "shop floor", where experienced foreigners were expected to act like ab-initio trainees and fell fowl of their colleagues (who preferred to think of themselves as superiors) when they didn't do so. No one explained that expectation at the outset, and had they done so much grief would have been avoided.
The other employer, a once-great Canadian company but now largely run by Americans following a merger with a smaller American rival, now has a culture of bullying, punitive action and confrontational employer/union relations.
Canada is a wonderful country, and emotionally it is almost as much home to me as it is to my Canadian wife. It does, however, have a somewhat fluffy image which doesn't necessarily ring true in the workplace. I've met and worked with plenty of Canadians who check their sense of humour at the door when they go to work. I've seen managers who have a much more inflated self-image, vis-a-vis non-management staff, than anyone in the UK would get away with.
That obviously isn't the whole story, but in some sectors of the workforce it seems that immigrants, regardless of experience, are expected to sit quietly, face the front and take whatever sh*t was once hurled at their Canadian superiors, even if they've already taken that sh*t in their home country, and especially if there wasn't any sh*t rolling downhill in their home country!
Aug 11th 2009, 6:46 am
#87
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Joined: Jun 2007
Location: One foot in Calgary, one in London
Posts: 1,102
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
If I had "vastly superior qualifications" and were clearly "over qualified" for a position I would probably not be aiming for something so clearly beneath me, at least not without a plausible explanation to the employer as to why I was 'downsizing' my career. However I always try to see the other person's POV and consequently I understand that an overseas-trained professional, no matter how well-equipped and experienced, may not be the best fit for a job without 'reprogramming' in the house style (whatever that may be - policing regulations or techniques, teaching requirements etc.). I was suggesting that showing a small measure of humility and accepting the reality gracefully is more likely to achieve your desired outcome than a display of arrogance and a flounce.
Canada is a wonderful country, and emotionally it is almost as much home to me as it is to my Canadian wife. It does, however, have a somewhat fluffy image which doesn't necessarily ring true in the workplace. I've met and worked with plenty of Canadians who check their sense of humour at the door when they go to work. I've seen managers who have a much more inflated self-image, vis-a-vis non-management staff, than anyone in the UK would get away with.
That obviously isn't the whole story, but in some sectors of the workforce it seems that immigrants, regardless of experience, are expected to sit quietly, face the front and take whatever sh*t was once hurled at their Canadian superiors, even if they've already taken that sh*t in their home country, and especially if there wasn't any sh*t rolling downhill in their home country!
That obviously isn't the whole story, but in some sectors of the workforce it seems that immigrants, regardless of experience, are expected to sit quietly, face the front and take whatever sh*t was once hurled at their Canadian superiors, even if they've already taken that sh*t in their home country, and especially if there wasn't any sh*t rolling downhill in their home country!
Aug 11th 2009, 4:06 pm
#88
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,054
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
To the specific question of a South African GP would move to Canada despite a serious reduction in status at work.....
1) It is entirely possible that the person in question was given information about the transfer of qualifications/experience which turned out not to be the case.
2) Many South Africans have left SA, or will leave SA, or are trying to leave SA, to escape a one-party state (in effect) where crime in rampant and many feel unsafe in their own homes. If the choice is to be a paramedic (hardly scraping the breadline...) in Canada, or a doctor in any country where the chances of being mugged, robbed, burgled or murdered are high, there isn't much of a choice to make.
3) I can't speak for doctors, but at least in aviation pay levels for highly-trained professionals are woeful in SA.
I've had two employers in Canada - one (in aviation) genuinely wanted, at the top level anyway, to make proper use of experienced foreigners. The problem was on the "shop floor", where experienced foreigners were expected to act like ab-initio trainees and fell fowl of their colleagues (who preferred to think of themselves as superiors) when they didn't do so. No one explained that expectation at the outset, and had they done so much grief would have been avoided.
The other employer, a once-great Canadian company but now largely run by Americans following a merger with a smaller American rival, now has a culture of bullying, punitive action and confrontational employer/union relations.
Canada is a wonderful country, and emotionally it is almost as much home to me as it is to my Canadian wife. It does, however, have a somewhat fluffy image which doesn't necessarily ring true in the workplace. I've met and worked with plenty of Canadians who check their sense of humour at the door when they go to work. I've seen managers who have a much more inflated self-image, vis-a-vis non-management staff, than anyone in the UK would get away with.
That obviously isn't the whole story, but in some sectors of the workforce it seems that immigrants, regardless of experience, are expected to sit quietly, face the front and take whatever sh*t was once hurled at their Canadian superiors, even if they've already taken that sh*t in their home country, and especially if there wasn't any sh*t rolling downhill in their home country!
1) It is entirely possible that the person in question was given information about the transfer of qualifications/experience which turned out not to be the case.
2) Many South Africans have left SA, or will leave SA, or are trying to leave SA, to escape a one-party state (in effect) where crime in rampant and many feel unsafe in their own homes. If the choice is to be a paramedic (hardly scraping the breadline...) in Canada, or a doctor in any country where the chances of being mugged, robbed, burgled or murdered are high, there isn't much of a choice to make.
3) I can't speak for doctors, but at least in aviation pay levels for highly-trained professionals are woeful in SA.
I've had two employers in Canada - one (in aviation) genuinely wanted, at the top level anyway, to make proper use of experienced foreigners. The problem was on the "shop floor", where experienced foreigners were expected to act like ab-initio trainees and fell fowl of their colleagues (who preferred to think of themselves as superiors) when they didn't do so. No one explained that expectation at the outset, and had they done so much grief would have been avoided.
The other employer, a once-great Canadian company but now largely run by Americans following a merger with a smaller American rival, now has a culture of bullying, punitive action and confrontational employer/union relations.
Canada is a wonderful country, and emotionally it is almost as much home to me as it is to my Canadian wife. It does, however, have a somewhat fluffy image which doesn't necessarily ring true in the workplace. I've met and worked with plenty of Canadians who check their sense of humour at the door when they go to work. I've seen managers who have a much more inflated self-image, vis-a-vis non-management staff, than anyone in the UK would get away with.
That obviously isn't the whole story, but in some sectors of the workforce it seems that immigrants, regardless of experience, are expected to sit quietly, face the front and take whatever sh*t was once hurled at their Canadian superiors, even if they've already taken that sh*t in their home country, and especially if there wasn't any sh*t rolling downhill in their home country!
Aug 11th 2009, 4:26 pm
#89
Settled.
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: St. Albert. AB.
Posts: 3,286
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
Rae - you give the impression you are very unhappy with your lot and sadly, this appears to be deteriorating into a generalised bitterness towards all and sundry which then distorts your perception about what they actually write on this forum (e.g. as with your completely OTT remarks to dboy).
your impression.
If I had "vastly superior qualifications" and were clearly "over qualified" for a position I would probably not be aiming for something so clearly beneath me,
presuming you have a choice of course. as i stated this guy did not, it was either this or nothing, if you think canadian employers do not tell you the whole story, or tell you one thing then do another, you really need to read more of this forum.
at least not without a plausible explanation to the employer as to why I was 'downsizing' my career.
study while working to achieve what he already had
I was suggesting that showing a small measure of humility and accepting the reality gracefully is more likely to achieve your desired outcome than a display of arrogance and a flounce.
i don't recall my example doing either. i would not be here 2yrs later if i was arrogant and flouncing either. you seem to mix these up with having a valid opinion, standing up for yourself and showing some resilience in the face of adversity.
your impression.
If I had "vastly superior qualifications" and were clearly "over qualified" for a position I would probably not be aiming for something so clearly beneath me,
presuming you have a choice of course. as i stated this guy did not, it was either this or nothing, if you think canadian employers do not tell you the whole story, or tell you one thing then do another, you really need to read more of this forum.
at least not without a plausible explanation to the employer as to why I was 'downsizing' my career.
study while working to achieve what he already had
I was suggesting that showing a small measure of humility and accepting the reality gracefully is more likely to achieve your desired outcome than a display of arrogance and a flounce.
i don't recall my example doing either. i would not be here 2yrs later if i was arrogant and flouncing either. you seem to mix these up with having a valid opinion, standing up for yourself and showing some resilience in the face of adversity.
Aug 11th 2009, 4:45 pm
#90
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Re: I Can't believe it!!!!!!!!!
I'm sure everyone has had negative experiences with employers. I've worked here for 17 years and have never experienced anything overly negative here in the work place - in fact I would go as far as to say that I have found it more relaxed than the UK. Based on my experience of course - not intended to generalize.
The Canadian office is the dullest in terms of socializing etc - drinks after work are pretty much unheard of. However it's stress free and the dress code is reasonably relaxed (I'm sat in the office in jeans, hooded top and trainers) and the people I work with seem decent. As I said, my only real complaint is that it would be good to go for a couple of post-work beers occasionally.
Just realized that's OT - sorry