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From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Old Apr 12th 2009, 9:43 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by Kiwilass
I dunno...I think the tide is turning in the US too. With the craziness on the US border with Mexico, the LA times poll that showed 90% of people think drugs should be legalized, including the former Republican judge, I'm now fairly optimistic I'll see legalisation or decriminalisation in my lifetime. It seems to be being talked about in the media in a way that I can't remember before
Weed of course has been decriminalised in Canada and parts of the US for yonks but meth and crack? I can't see it happening and I can't see that there's merit in the idea. If it does happen I suppose we can all be grateful that there's no socialized dental care in Canada.
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:10 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by dbd33
.... but meth and crack? I can't see it happening and I can't see that there's merit in the idea....
And why not? - who are you or anyone else to say what I can't do if I want to? I wouldn't expect the state to pick up the pieces if I destroyed my life because of a crack habit, but I also think that the fact I could be imprisoned for doing something that harms no-one else is despicable.
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:19 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

The reality is that in large urban areas, the police realize the futility in charging for simple possession. I spent 4 years as a street cop and seized everything you can imagine in a day to day basis. I never charged anyone, not even once for simple possession it simply was not worth the effort. Further, the Vancouver courts would likely not bother laying a charge, viewing it to not be in the public interest to do so and i seriously doubt anyone is really going to jail for it anymore.

Moreover, the vast majority of those with possession convictions, were likely plea deals down from possession for the purposes of trafficking.

Also if you look at how many police resources are dedicated to drug enforcement its actually very few. I would say only about 5 percent vs 15 percent on traffic duties . Not to say that drugs may be relevant to a lot of investigations (such as robbery to support an habit or the kidnapping of a person with respect to a drug debit), but as far as pro-active police work goes, not a whole lot of resources are dedicated. There are just as many soft approaches adopted by the police towards drugs, such as DARE or other community based grass roots projects. Even the Youth Criminal Justice Act allows police to issue warnings rather than charges.

I think that when you look at the response to drugs from the police, its obvious what the mind set is. Cops know we've already lost the war on drugs anyone who says different is still too green to know any better or seriously deluded.

Those on here who think that the police are waging a war against the defenseless are greatly misinformed. You want to try walking in the steps of a beat cop on the down town eastside. We know first hand the plight of those who are addicted and truly feel for them. We get to know them, learn about their lives, even maybe develop a fondness for them. We share laughs with them, perhaps buy them a meal, give them a smoke (a good street cop learns to always have a pack of smokes at hand), learn about their life their family, even try and get them into rehab, get the city to pay for a bus ticket to be with family, what ever little we can do. Then we have see them 6 months later in a back alley dead - We are, after all human and just as capable as compassion as anyone else.

The system is broken - drugs are a social disease. I have no idea what the solutions may be, I dare say they are far more complex than we can pretend to know by writing a couple of sentences on a blog. Perhaps you should be asking yourselves what have you can do to make a difference.

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Last edited by dboy; Apr 12th 2009 at 10:44 pm.
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:32 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by Alan2005
And why not? - who are you or anyone else to say what I can't do if I want to? I wouldn't expect the state to pick up the pieces if I destroyed my life because of a crack habit, but I also think that the fact I could be imprisoned for doing something that harms no-one else is despicable.
The issue there is the extent to which a man can be an island. It is no business of the state to interfere in your desire to die so long as it's miserably and alone. Once you involved other people then it's a legitimate concern of the state. I put it to you that you cannot obtain crystal meth without endangering the lives of others; if you do have your own lab far
from the public at large then good luck to you but I doubt that's the case. Have you considered a means by which you can be supplied with meth without attracting other people, specifically minors, to take an interest in it?
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:33 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by dboy
Those on here who think that the police are waging a war against the defenseless are greatly misinformed. You want to try walking in the steps of a beat cop on the down town eastside. We know first hand the plight of those who are addicted and truly feel for them. We get to know them, learn about their lives, even maybe develop a fondness for them. We are, after all human and just as capable as compassion as anyone else.

I have no idea what the solutions may be, I dare say they are far more complex than we can pretend to know by writing a couple of sentences on a blog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZDQwNKObuc
I had the luck of going on a ride-a-long with the VPD a few years ago in the DTES. That was the impression I had, too. That, and a lot of the people on the street seemed mentally ill to me.
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:34 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by Alan2005
And why not? - who are you or anyone else to say what I can't do if I want to? I wouldn't expect the state to pick up the pieces if I destroyed my life because of a crack habit, but I also think that the fact I could be imprisoned for doing something that harms no-one else is despicable.
word.
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:34 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by Kiwilass
I had the luck of going on a ride-a-long with the VPD a few years ago in the DTES. That was the impression I had, too. That, and a lot of the people on the street seemed mentally ill to me.
why should the people on the street be any different to the rest of the people in Van? You need to be mental to live there dont you?
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:36 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by dbd33
Weed of course has been decriminalised in Canada and parts of the US for yonks but meth and crack? I can't see it happening and I can't see that there's merit in the idea. If it does happen I suppose we can all be grateful that there's no socialized dental care in Canada.
har.

Not really wanting to get into the are drugs addictive debate with you....let's just say the jury is out (imo) on whether meth and crack are, in and of themselves, addictive. I think there's genetic, upbringing, what have you reasons why people end up addicted, whether it be to meth or alcohol, so I'm completely comfortable with it all being legalised and then dealing with the addicted, paid for by taxes on said drugs.
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:36 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy
why should the people on the street be any different to the rest of the people in Van? You need to be mental to live there dont you?
Huh?
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:37 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Oh, was that humour? Well, then...har har!
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:41 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by dbd33
I put it to you that you cannot obtain crystal meth without endangering the lives of others; if you do have your own lab far
from the public at large then good luck to you but I doubt that's the case. Have you considered a means by which you can be supplied with meth without attracting other people, specifically minors, to take an interest in it?
But if it's legal, then surely the meth lab could be controlled and made safer, just like any risky business activity involving chemicals.

As with alcohol, there'd be no way to stop people being interested in it who wanted to be. Just like now. And as with alcohol, some people would end up alcoholics or addicts, and some would take it or leave it.

Last edited by ExKiwilass; Apr 12th 2009 at 10:43 pm.
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:49 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by dbd33
Apologies for misstating the name of the Yogic Flyers, I made them seem ridiculous. You are not going to get a political party in Canada to adopt a position of legalizing even soft drugs until you can get one to do it in the US and that'll be a long time coming. Even if such a thing were to happen that would not necessarily do anything to reduce the gang wars. Cigarettes are a legal drug in Ontario but the rate of tax on them is such that there is still a black market and, from time to time, shooting wars break out over that market.

I think we'll see easy availability of drugs along with expensive wars on them for the rest of our lives.
Yes you are right, not to mention smuggling of alcohol and smokes and even counterfeiting. Also the second most common item stolen in a robbery after cash is cigarettes. Shoplifting at liquor stores is an epidemic.
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:50 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by Alan2005
who are you or anyone else to say what I can't do if I want to? I wouldn't expect the state to pick up the pieces if I destroyed my life because of a crack habit, but I also think that the fact I could be imprisoned for doing something that harms no-one else is despicable.
Originally Posted by dbd33
It is no business of the state to interfere in your desire to die so long as it's miserably and alone. Once you involved other people then it's a legitimate concern of the state. I put it to you that you cannot obtain crystal meth without endangering the lives of others; if you do have your own lab far
from the public at large then good luck to you but I doubt that's the case. Have you considered a means by which you can be supplied with meth without attracting other people, specifically minors, to take an interest in it?
I think it highly unlikely that one could destroy one's own life and die from a crack habit without it having an affect on anyone else. The knock on effects of acquiring said substance are huge, from manufacture and supply, to finding more devious ways to support the habit (unless you are a drug-producing multi-millionaire that we are not aware of ).

If one wishes to destroy one's life through a crack habit, I think that society will pay in more ways than you can imagine, from the occasional hospital visit for treatment after you are found collapsed somewhere, to the staff that try 'to put you back on the straight and narrow', right down to the day that your emaciated body is found and the police and coroner have to investigate and examine your body to confirm you did this to yourself!

And legal or not, on the basis of the above comments, Alan2005 would still be dead!
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Old Apr 12th 2009, 10:53 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by Kiwilass
I had the luck of going on a ride-a-long with the VPD a few years ago in the DTES. That was the impression I had, too. That, and a lot of the people on the street seemed mentally ill to me.
De-institutionalization of those with mental health issues in the late 80's is what transformed the dtes in the first place. Those that needed compassionate care were released with a bottle of pills. Riverview was closed - i dare say motivated more by money rather than anything else.

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Old Apr 12th 2009, 11:01 pm
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Default Re: From heaven to hell: 18 die as drugs war rages on streets of Vancouver

Originally Posted by Kiwilass
But if it's legal, then surely the meth lab could be controlled and made safer, just like any risky business activity involving chemicals.

As with alcohol, there'd be no way to stop people being interested in it who wanted to be. Just like now. And as with alcohol, some people would end up alcoholics or addicts, and some would take it or leave it.
I think this is faulty reasoning. Two wrongs don't make a right. Perhaps we should be asking why alcohol is not illegal.
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