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Good Laws or Bad ?

Good Laws or Bad ?

Old Oct 3rd 2006, 9:21 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Lees147
Which is why i said people should be able to rebuke these 'yobs' themselves, but if it gets nastier I.E. a brick through a window or anything on the same extreme thats when the police should kick in. They should have no right being called out because there are teenagers on the street.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by Lees147
The main trouble these days is that people can't rebuke kids becuase they get an assualt charge slapped on them so fast you couldn't even say damned kids.
Telling off a teenager will not get you an assault charge. Hitting one will, and justly so.

Originally Posted by Lees147
I agree with the older generation who will quite happliy say in my day we used to have to work for our keep and if we fell out of line we would get a clip round the year.......yada yada yada.
And many children still do get a clip around the ear when they fell out of line. I did and my children will (although non-physically) too!

I'm sure there were a fair share of yobs 100 years ago too. Don't look back too much with Rose-tinted glasses.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 9:35 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Canada2006
Telling off a teenager will not get you an assault charge. Hitting one will, and justly so.
I'll put you in a scenario:

You get off a bus to walk home after a long days work.

There are 5 kids that walk in the same direction of you varying ages between 8-16 and one of the younger kids starts hitting you around the face and none of the others do anything but 'egg the kid on'.

What would you do after trying to rebuke them verbally?

By the way this happened and my response was picking up the kid and hitting him(only a spank not a full blown punch) after a stern telling off.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 9:35 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Lees147
There needs to be some form of punishment from the police. I know community service in cleaning up p*** from the local tramp hotspots
Community service is a great idea imo. You could have levels of niceness ie being a bit antisocial means doing some weeding in some pensioners garden. Being very antisocial means cleaning up puke in the tramp hotspot. It could have the added benefit of teaching skills (gardening, decorating etc) as well as giving these children a sense of community and pride.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 10:06 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

I've been reading this with great interest.
its a very difficult situation to comment on. no doubt the media, negative reporting and political agenda of certain newspapers influence thinking and give people who do not have first hand experience the idea that it is so. having said that, not all news stories are fabrications or sensationalist.
most news agencies today carry these stories.
peter woodhams 22yrs, london, shot dead after an argument with youths near his home, 17,18yr old charged. peter was an employed father of one, not known to the police.
stevens nyembo-ya-muteba 40yrs, london, college student father of two, not known to police, stabbed to death outside his home after asking 4 youths, 14-17yrs all currently in custody, to be quiet.
did this kind of thing happen 50, 100, 200yrs ago, of course it did, does it happen across the world, of course it does. is it more widely reported now, yes, due to obvious advances in communication technology. does it involve younger offenders, not sure. i've no stats on youth offending to hand, but certainly early cases from Bow St. Mags in the 1800's, give details of similar crime as above.
there is one difference though, and this is my point.
youths challenged are more likely to resist, argue, fight and refuse to accept any direction from authority figures, whether that be the police or adults in general. was this the same all those years ago, again i can't say i wasn't there. i personally couldn't imagine speaking to people as i hear and get spoken to now, so i would say since the early 70's at least, there has been a definite change for the worst unfortunately.

from first hand experience as a police officer for 10yrs, now a Sgt. responsible for 12 officers in south manchester, violent crime is increasing. the robberies i dealt with 10yrs ago, did not involve the level of violence and use, or implied use, of weapons as they did then. gun crime now is prevalent, you've not read since the shooting of jesse james that the person thought responsible has been shot and so has his girlfriend. this is not unusual, if i don't deal with some kind of firearms incident during a tour of duty its a surprise. Being told to 'f' off by just about everyone 10yrs upwards is the norm. last night i assisted a dad who was trying to get his 14yr old daughter home. she was drunk as a lord on the local park with her friends, Mon night! dad had tried to get her home once already. he had been surrounded by 8-10 teens and assaulted, being told she was staying with them and he had no right to intervene. when i arrived he had a bloody nose and was very upset. i went into the park and got the daughter back, receiving a similar level of abuse. they got away with it again (dad didn't want to press a complaint) as i was on my own and simply couldn't physically deal with all the offenders and daughter. this is not unusual, as the Sgt i still have to patrol as we only normally parade 6 p.c.'s for the whole of the area. so they abuse the teachers and receive little punishment for various reasons and the same goes for other authority figures. the bad kids think they are untouchable and i'm sad to say in my experience, they usually are.

the solution and cause is subject to thesis, i'll let you have a copy dbd as i know you like your research! suffice to say, there is no easy fix. it is depressing, but i do agree as earlier posted that we tend to dwell on the negative, including me. i do stop and speak to loads of kids in groups on a regular basis and have a chat without issue. unfortunately, again as an earlier post, its these incidents we tend to remember and maybe thats the real issue, what are we as responsible adults doing to change it?
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 10:17 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Lees147
I'll put you in a scenario:

You get off a bus to walk home after a long days work.

There are 5 kids that walk in the same direction of you varying ages between 8-16 and one of the younger kids starts hitting you around the face and none of the others do anything but 'egg the kid on'.

What would you do after trying to rebuke them verbally?

By the way this happened and my response was picking up the kid and hitting him(only a spank not a full blown punch) after a stern telling off.
Oh, I'd probably have run to be honest.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 10:20 am
  #96  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by rae
I've been reading this with great interest.
its a very difficult situation to comment on. no doubt the media, negative reporting and political agenda of certain newspapers influence thinking and give people who do not have first hand experience the idea that it is so. having said that, not all news stories are fabrications or sensationalist.
most news agencies today carry these stories.
peter woodhams 22yrs, london, shot dead after an argument with youths near his home, 17,18yr old charged. peter was an employed father of one, not known to the police.
stevens nyembo-ya-muteba 40yrs, london, college student father of two, not known to police, stabbed to death outside his home after asking 4 youths, 14-17yrs all currently in custody, to be quiet.
did this kind of thing happen 50, 100, 200yrs ago, of course it did, does it happen across the world, of course it does. is it more widely reported now, yes, due to obvious advances in communication technology. does it involve younger offenders, not sure. i've no stats on youth offending to hand, but certainly early cases from Bow St. Mags in the 1800's, give details of similar crime as above.
there is one difference though, and this is my point.
youths challenged are more likely to resist, argue, fight and refuse to accept any direction from authority figures, whether that be the police or adults in general. was this the same all those years ago, again i can't say i wasn't there. i personally couldn't imagine speaking to people as i hear and get spoken to now, so i would say since the early 70's at least, there has been a definite change for the worst unfortunately.

from first hand experience as a police officer for 10yrs, now a Sgt. responsible for 12 officers in south manchester, violent crime is increasing. the robberies i dealt with 10yrs ago, did not involve the level of violence and use, or implied use, of weapons as they did then. gun crime now is prevalent, you've not read since the shooting of jesse james that the person thought responsible has been shot and so has his girlfriend. this is not unusual, if i don't deal with some kind of firearms incident during a tour of duty its a surprise. Being told to 'f' off by just about everyone 10yrs upwards is the norm. last night i assisted a dad who was trying to get his 14yr old daughter home. she was drunk as a lord on the local park with her friends, Mon night! dad had tried to get her home once already. he had been surrounded by 8-10 teens and assaulted, being told she was staying with them and he had no right to intervene. when i arrived he had a bloody nose and was very upset. i went into the park and got the daughter back, receiving a similar level of abuse. they got away with it again (dad didn't want to press a complaint) as i was on my own and simply couldn't physically deal with all the offenders and daughter. this is not unusual, as the Sgt i still have to patrol as we only normally parade 6 p.c.'s for the whole of the area. so they abuse the teachers and receive little punishment for various reasons and the same goes for other authority figures. the bad kids think they are untouchable and i'm sad to say in my experience, they usually are.

the solution and cause is subject to thesis, i'll let you have a copy dbd as i know you like your research! suffice to say, there is no easy fix. it is depressing, but i do agree as earlier posted that we tend to dwell on the negative, including me. i do stop and speak to loads of kids in groups on a regular basis and have a chat without issue. unfortunately, again as an earlier post, its these incidents we tend to remember and maybe thats the real issue, what are we as responsible adults doing to change it?
Rae,

Thank you for this account from the "front line" and for your views.

I do agree that it's a shame that there are kids and teens that behave this way; but I do believe it's a small minority. I'm certain that the vast majority of people, adults and children, respect the police and the difficult work that you do! I for one could not do your job!

Do you have any ideas about what we can do as responsible adults to change it?
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 10:23 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by sinope
Community service is a great idea imo. You could have levels of niceness ie being a bit antisocial means doing some weeding in some pensioners garden. Being very antisocial means cleaning up puke in the tramp hotspot. It could have the added benefit of teaching skills (gardening, decorating etc) as well as giving these children a sense of community and pride.
its a good idea for some, and they are the persons likely to complete it. the problem arises again with the courts. they impose this punishment, but if someone fails to comply they do not tend to impose extra hours or an alternative stricter sentence. i've lost count of the number of times i've locked up an offender for breach of community order, for the courts to just let them off. its the same with fines. i'll never forget a serial offender who had built up £700 in fines for various offences. i met him at court, whilst i was there on another matter. he laughed at me, as i was responsible for some of the fines, "they've just wiped the slate clean as i can't pay mate ho ho ho". yes thats right, he owed nothing after the hearing as apparently he was destitute. needless to say he was wearing the obligatory 'la coste' tracksuit, 'nike' air trainers and smoking his head off, funny how he could afford that isn't it. but you know the worst thing of all, he then went outside and tried to break into a car in the car park of the court!!!. there is a happy ending though, the car belonged to his barrister, have a guess who was laughing then, i almost let him go!!
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 10:32 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Canada2006
Rae,

Thank you for this account from the "front line" and for your views.

I do agree that it's a shame that there are kids and teens that behave this way; but I do believe it's a small minority. I'm certain that the vast majority of people, adults and children, respect the police and the difficult work that you do! I for one could not do your job!

Do you have any ideas about what we can do as responsible adults to change it?
yes lots, i'll be completely honest though, i have a certain amount of antipathy and lethargy after spending 12hrs dealing with this kind of stuff, to continue in my spare time. its a good cathartic release spending an hour on here, maybe we should force them all to subscribe to ex-pats for 12 months, i'd go straight after being told off by iain, butch, ocean, deer hunter and dbd.
i think the most we can do, is setting the very best example we can to our children, that will include turning the other cheek, exercising some self restraint and not crying 'flog the lot of them' every time someone drops a piece of litter, but ensuring those who do commit violent crime receive and serve lengthy sentences.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 10:33 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by rae
its a good idea for some, and they are the persons likely to complete it. the problem arises again with the courts. they impose this punishment, but if someone fails to comply they do not tend to impose extra hours or an alternative stricter sentence. i've lost count of the number of times i've locked up an offender for breach of community order, for the courts to just let them off. its the same with fines. i'll never forget a serial offender who had built up £700 in fines for various offences. i met him at court, whilst i was there on another matter. he laughed at me, as i was responsible for some of the fines, "they've just wiped the slate clean as i can't pay mate ho ho ho". yes thats right, he owed nothing after the hearing as apparently he was destitute. needless to say he was wearing the obligatory 'la coste' tracksuit, 'nike' air trainers and smoking his head off, funny how he could afford that isn't it. but you know the worst thing of all, he then went outside and tried to break into a car in the car park of the court!!!. there is a happy ending though, the car belonged to his barrister, have a guess who was laughing then, i almost let him go!!
Repeat offending due to lack of punishment must be so depressing and frustrating for you. I couldn't do your job either - you have my respect.

I do think that it all boils down to education or lack of. Petty criminals and asbo kids all have this in common. I don't really know how to make knowlege attractive to a child whose parents and peers ridicule learning though.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 10:40 am
  #100  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Garfielduk
Hi All,

Been a while since I have been here.

Read an article today about a woman who had been harassed by Yobs/Youths (in YUK of course) for months since moving into her house, thought they owned the neighbourhood, in fact said they did to her, played music so loud in her front garden they could not sleep, threw missiles and bricks through her windows, police did nothing. She confronted them (Brave woman) and she ended up slapping 3 of them on the face. Guess what, she was prosecuted by the Crown Prosectution Service for assault and taking matters into her own hands and the court gave her an 18 month Community Order.

I know what I think but what about everyone else ?
as to be expected, myself included, drifted away somewhat i think from this original post.
so in direct reply. the law is quite clear, the force necessary to achieve your aim must be reasonable and proportionate in the circumstances.
for instance, slapping all 3 kids when possibly only 1 was responsible would be unlawful. whether you agree or not is immaterial i'm afraid as this is the law. however sentencing is another matter. the disparity in this area is unbelievable and depends largely on your role and place in society as much as media interest and services of a good solicitor( good and solicitor used in the same sentence loosely).
although i know nothing about the case, if this person was charged with 3x sec 39 assault under offences against the person act, and was not previously known to the court, this seems excessive.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 10:47 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by sinope
Repeat offending due to lack of punishment must be so depressing and frustrating for you. I couldn't do your job either - you have my respect.

I do think that it all boils down to education or lack of. Petty criminals and asbo kids all have this in common. I don't really know how to make knowlege attractive to a child whose parents and peers ridicule learning though.
the really, really depressing thing, is that when you speak one on one to some of these kids, they cry their eyes out. if there was some way of removing them from the criminal environment, created largley by the parents, siblings, friends and housing estates they find themselves in, there could possibly be an improvement. that is what the youth offending teams try when they send the kids on days out ect, unfortunetly all this attracts is negative press, yet surely if it shows an alternative life and stops a 15yr old moving onto a life of crime it has to be worth it. there are some you cannot save of course. its these who need to got to prison and stay there.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 11:17 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Canada2006
There are loads of people coming too - it's sooo good.

How many places in the world are worse than the UK? I'd frankly feel safer in the UK than South Africa, for instance.

This is whats happening in my home town

http://www.basildonrecorder.co.uk/ne...op_my_baby.php

Kids literally threatening to drop babies for 2 quid and half a pack of bensons!!!
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 11:32 am
  #103  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by rae
the really, really depressing thing, is that when you speak one on one to some of these kids, they cry their eyes out. if there was some way of removing them from the criminal environment, created largley by the parents, siblings, friends and housing estates they find themselves in, there could possibly be an improvement. that is what the youth offending teams try when they send the kids on days out ect, unfortunetly all this attracts is negative press, yet surely if it shows an alternative life and stops a 15yr old moving onto a life of crime it has to be worth it. there are some you cannot save of course. its these who need to got to prison and stay there.
I'm sure that most of these kids have psychological wounds from their family and/or environment that have never been treated, so they play up. It's really unfortunate for them and for us, no one is winning.

Of course, it doesn't mean that the line between right and wrong should be shifted for them, but when they do go wrong, they needed to be treated appropriately.

I went to a comprehensive school where there were kids who, deep down, were really good people; but their environment had placed a nice layer of crap on top of them. On the other hand, there were some really nasty scumbags out there. N*** C******** I still haven't forgotten!

Some people need picking up after they've fallen, and some need throwing into jail to keep them out of everyone's hair. The vast majority, I'm sure, fall into the first category.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 11:48 am
  #104  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by rae
the really, really depressing thing, is that when you speak one on one to some of these kids, they cry their eyes out. if there was some way of removing them from the criminal environment, created largley by the parents, siblings, friends and housing estates they find themselves in, there could possibly be an improvement.
I have done approximately this. I had moved to Canada, my brother was still in London. He'd been busted for minor crimes; possession of weed, possession of acid, drunk and disorderly, he was acquitted on a charge of assaulting a police officer, convicted of attempting to burgle a chemist's (he got stuck in the chimney) and claims to have been in a car (Mk II Jag, of course) from which a bouncer at the Galty was shot in the legs. All in all, the usual run teenaged trouble denounced above as a new phenomenon. I imported him to Canada to lay some bricks for me, while he was here he was offered a job and he stayed. It took a while for the English idea that every night ends in a fight to wear off and, in this period, we got banned from numerous bars I liked. Still, eventually he calmed down and he now has a business and a farm and all that respectable stuff. So, yes, changing the environment changes the person but it's no help on a large scale; you can't move all of Barnsley to Canada.

Two other points: I imported the brother in the eighties so I don't think things have changed that much, only the publicity is different. This week there is a documentary on CBC about the Jane/Finch area of Toronto, it will doubtless denounce the chavish youth of that neighbourhood, but they use different words, eh? Same shit, shinier needles.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 11:59 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by rae
the really, really depressing thing, is that when you speak one on one to some of these kids, they cry their eyes out. if there was some way of removing them from the criminal environment, created largley by the parents, siblings, friends and housing estates they find themselves in, there could possibly be an improvement.
Perhaps there shouldn't be housing estates. I'm taken aback that my niece, a banged up teen, was able to drop out of school at 15, after she had a baby, move into a house provided by the local authority and live on benefits. It seems to me that she's never going to work and that this is a direct consequence of government policy; if she had not been provided with a house and benefits she would have had a abortion and got a job instead. The taxpayer's money could then have been used to assist people who did not cause their own problems, asylum seekers, for example.

It seems to me that free ("at the point of service") education and healthcare is enough, it's not the business of the government to stop people being homeless and/or hungry of their own volition.
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