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Good Laws or Bad ?

Good Laws or Bad ?

Old Oct 2nd 2006, 9:26 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Canada2006
1/ I would look at why people misbehave rather than just punishing, yes. There are root causes I would rather treat than just symptoms

2/ Never moan if you're not prepared to get off your ass and do something about it.
Why should I get off my ass, I have a full time job and do it to the best of my ability; I don't ignore the issues at my place of work and I don't expect others who are paid to keep the shit off the streets to sit on their arses and do so either, that includes the Police, Social Services and the Local Authority.
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Old Oct 2nd 2006, 10:13 pm
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Garfielduk
I don't particularly care how long she lived there, the fact is she was abused by the gang of youths.
It does rather change the complexion of the case. You claimed that she'd been harassed for months, suggesting that she'd lost her temper after great provocation. In fact, she'd just moved in and immediately got into a ruckus with the neighbours. The timeframe suggests that it is unreasonable to think that the police or other authority could have done anything about the situation.
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Old Oct 2nd 2006, 10:18 pm
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Garfielduk
Why should I get off my ass, I have a full time job and do it to the best of my ability; I don't ignore the issues at my place of work and I don't expect others who are paid to keep the shit off the streets to sit on their arses and do so either, that includes the Police, Social Services and the Local Authority.
This all happened in the space of a week. Do you think that is a reasonable period for anyone other than the police to have become involved? If so, is there any sort of dispute between neighbours you think could be resolved without the resort to the Social Services and Local Authority?
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Old Oct 2nd 2006, 10:23 pm
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by dbd33
I expect the tragic tale of the brave old lady bitch slapping the Eastern European Muslim immigrant scounger chav scum same-sex married kiddy fiddlers is bollocks too, but without a link it's hard to be certain.
No, it's true, although they were just regular home grown thugs. The judge censured the police and sympathised with the woman concerned as he handed down the sentence.

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Old Oct 2nd 2006, 10:38 pm
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by bad.andy
No, it's true, although they were just regular home grown thugs. The judge censured the police
It doesn't say so in the BBC report, is there other coverage?
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 6:30 am
  #81  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Garfielduk
Why should I get off my ass, I have a full time job and do it to the best of my ability; I don't ignore the issues at my place of work and I don't expect others who are paid to keep the shit off the streets to sit on their arses and do so either, that includes the Police, Social Services and the Local Authority.
You should get off your arse, because you choose to live in a democracy where everyone is accountable. Getting off your arse can mean as little as writing letters and holding people accountable, or taking responsibility for organising neighbourhood watch programmes etc.

If you want to moan without having to get off your arse, try a nanny state. Dictatorships are good for this. The best one at the moment is North Korea in my opinion. Moreover, you won't be troubled by immigrants!
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 6:33 am
  #82  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by dbd33
This all happened in the space of a week. Do you think that is a reasonable period for anyone other than the police to have become involved? If so, is there any sort of dispute between neighbours you think could be resolved without the resort to the Social Services and Local Authority?
We have to be so careful when getting worked up about these things.

From my reading, this is inter-chavette warfare - but again, I don't have all the facts to judge. See how facts are important before getting worked up about things?
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 7:40 am
  #83  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Garfielduk
Why should I get off my ass, I have a full time job and do it to the best of my ability; I don't ignore the issues at my place of work and I don't expect others who are paid to keep the shit off the streets to sit on their arses and do so either, that includes the Police, Social Services and the Local Authority.
A full-time job shouldn't excuse you from complaining to your local council/mp/pressure group/police if you feel that an injustice has been done. Whilst you have been posting on Expats you could have sent off letters and emails to the police force in question, your MP and the Attorney General (I have his address if you want it) to complain about the sentencing. We will never change things by sitting on our backsides and chuntering about lifes unfairness.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 8:14 am
  #84  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by sinope
A full-time job shouldn't excuse you from complaining to your local council/mp/pressure group/police if you feel that an injustice has been done. Whilst you have been posting on Expats you could have sent off letters and emails to the police force in question, your MP and the Attorney General (I have his address if you want it) to complain about the sentencing. We will never change things by sitting on our backsides and chuntering about lifes unfairness.
Absolutely agree 100%.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 8:27 am
  #85  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by dbd33
It doesn't say so in the BBC report, is there other coverage?
From what I can see, the news articles both referred to local children aged 14-16.

Except from the Ofsted report for the local secondary school...
There are 880 pupils on roll, with 72 more boys than girls. The school serves communities on the east side of Barnsley, an area with prolonged high unemployment and few households in which adults have higher education qualifications. About 35 per cent of pupils, 298 in all, are eligible for free school meals, much higher than the national average. On balance, pupils come from a background of serious social and economic disadvantage. Equally, nearly all indicators suggest that pupils arrive at the school with levels of prior attainment that are well below average. The proportion of pupils with statements of special educational needs is twice the national one and there are more pupils on the special educational needs register than usual. All but four pupils are white; only two pupils use English as an additional language and both have a secure grasp of English...
Infer from that what you can/will.

The judge did his job. She pleaded guilty in court. I do not know how much flexibility there is on sentencing such cases. The article also said that the judge recommended that the police and local authority GET involved in helping the woman move, not that they should have been involved.

As for treating the root of the problem (that specific area has been a problem area for more than 25 years to my knowledge - it precedes the '84-'85 nastiness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Miners'_Strike_(1984-1985) ), there are few solutions that would be palatable to a Western democracy.

I am very disappointed by the "it's not my problem" attitude. Are you going to say/do the same in Canada?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 8:31 am
  #86  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Canada2006
Absolutely agree 100%.
The trouble is if we lived in a better community we could communicate with our neighbours and talk about what we have concerns about ect...

Also it shouldn't ever be the polices problem with minors. We can have several options.

1. Talk to parents around the area.
2. If the parents don't care rebuke the kids yourself.
3. If problem gets worse/persists then talk to the police.

You mention being in a nanny state canada2006, we are already in one because people can't deal with these problems themselves. The reason for this is they are scared of option 2 above, we should not be told not to rebuke minors this is where they get the feeling of 'you can't touch me'.

When it is involving 16-18 year olds this is when the police should lock them in the slammer after a couple of cautions.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 8:48 am
  #87  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Lees147
The trouble is if we lived in a better community we could communicate with our neighbours and talk about what we have concerns about ect...

Also it shouldn't ever be the polices problem with minors. We can have several options.

1. Talk to parents around the area.
2. If the parents don't care rebuke the kids yourself.
3. If problem gets worse/persists then talk to the police.

You mention being in a nanny state canada2006, we are already in one because people can't deal with these problems themselves. The reason for this is they are scared of option 2 above, we should not be told not to rebuke minors this is where they get the feeling of 'you can't touch me'.

When it is involving 16-18 year olds this is when the police should lock them in the slammer after a couple of cautions.
I can agree with most of this. Are we in a Nanny state? The UK is definitely too much so, but neither is it horrendously nannisque.

I would be very cautions about locking up teenagers in prison. My suspicion is that there is a very high re-offending rate amongst this type of offender. Prison ofters a great schooling... in how to be a criminal. So it must be last resort for extreme cases of persistant anti-social behaviour. Be prepared to lock these offenders up for most of their lives.
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 8:52 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Canada2006
I can agree with most of this. Are we in a Nanny state? The UK is definitely too much so, but neither is it horrendously nannisque.

I would be very cautions about locking up teenagers in prison. My suspicion is that there is a very high re-offending rate amongst this type of offender. Prison ofters a great schooling... in how to be a criminal. So it must be last resort for extreme cases of persistant anti-social behaviour. Be prepared to lock these offenders up for most of their lives.
There needs to be some form of punishment from the police. I know community service in cleaning up p*** from the local tramp hotspots
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 9:00 am
  #89  
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Lees147
There needs to be some form of punishment from the police. I know community service in cleaning up p*** from the local tramp hotspots
Police are there to prevent criminal acts and catch those responsible. Punishment comes from the judicial system. This prevents torture and summary punishment etc.

I know that the ghastly behaviour of some of these youths makes people what to go in with all guns blazing, but that is often counterproductive in the long run.

Frankly, I don't really care too much about them, but we need to treat them in such a way that they become a responsible and productive member of society in the shortest possible time. If that means community service and prison as a last resort, so be it.

What do we do in business when an employee has problems. Sack them? No, we put a plan together to help them improve. Why not do the same with yobs?
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Old Oct 3rd 2006, 9:07 am
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Default Re: Good Laws or Bad ?

Originally Posted by Canada2006
Police are there to prevent criminal acts and catch those responsible. Punishment comes from the judicial system. This prevents torture and summary punishment etc.

I know that the ghastly behaviour of some of these youths makes people what to go in with all guns blazing, but that is often counterproductive in the long run.

Frankly, I don't really care too much about them, but we need to treat them in such a way that they become a responsible and productive member of society in the shortest possible time. If that means community service and prison as a last resort, so be it.

What do we do in business when an employee has problems. Sack them? No, we put a plan together to help them improve. Why not do the same with yobs?
Which is why i said people should be able to rebuke these 'yobs' themselves, but if it gets nastier I.E. a brick through a window or anything on the same extreme thats when the police should kick in. They should have no right being called out because there are teenagers on the street.

The main trouble these days is that people can't rebuke kids becuase they get an assualt charge slapped on them so fast you couldn't even say damned kids.

I agree with the older generation who will quite happliy say in my day we used to have to work for our keep and if we fell out of line we would get a clip round the year.......yada yada yada.
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