My comment wasn't actually aimed especially at C-Daisy but at the attitude that is really very prevalent in all of North America that the 8 million or so French Canadians are either a pain in the butt or a bit of an anachronistic joke (= Frenchified). I know where those thoughts are coming from but you do have to live here to realise that not treating people with respect is exactly what has led to all the problems over potential separatism. Ok - it doesn't now look like that's actually going to happen any time soon but it would be well for anyone coming to live here to be aware of the problem. Nobody would ever contemplate talking about a visible minority in an off-hand way ("blackish areas", "araby sort of regions" etc) so why patronise the French? Maybe people here are often oversensitive about it but they have good historical reasons to feel that way. Actually, and for the record, I think C-Daisy talks a lot of sense in her postings.

Now - to reply to another posting asking about the type of French spoken here. Firstly, there are no specifically Canadian-French learning courses available on tape etc but there are plenty of classes once you get here. Anyone coming to Quebec as a PR is entitled to up to a year of full-time French immersion courses at the government's expense (they even pay you a living allowance while taking them) - details from the local Carrefour d'integration which you can find on the Immigration Quebec website. These courses are excellent but if work prevents you doing this there are lots of courses at local colleges and many private language schools.

The French of Quebec is different to that of France in the same way that American or Glasgow English is different to that in London. A native speaker would have no problems understanding or being understood but you have to get your ear in. Many constructions are based on archaic grammar which has been left behind in France (ditto N.American English vis a vis the UK) while there has been quite a lot of adoption of English words into the language and the accent is really thick on the whole though it is pretty easy if that's what you hear around you every day. Working class and educated French are as distinct as in any tongue. Interestingly, in may ways France has adopted more English than people here - in France you leave your car at "le parking" while here it's "le stationnement" and after a long week at work you relax here over "le fin de semaine" while in France it is always "le weekend" but these are things you quickly adapt to. here when shopping you "faire le magasinage" and drive there in a "char". If you need a pint of milk late at night you go to a "depanneur" (a corner shop) - a word that in France refers to the guy who fixes your car after an accident. It is very common to hear people switch languages in mid-sentence and even English has adopted many french usages - all a fascinating mixture in la belle province.

My understanding from a good friend born in Quebec is that once the French landed in the 15/1600s, the language in Canada evolved differently to the language in France, with differnent phrasing etc, so Canadian French is to French French something like shakspearian english is to current english.... Many Quebequois have trouble being understood in France because it is a very regionalised dialect....kind of like an American (or Canadain) trying to understand a really thick glaswegian or scouse accent. If your conversation is slow enough you will probably understand each other.

Unfortunately I'm not aware of any canadian french training tapes.

On a day to day basis, 75% of canadians are monoglot english speakers, so not speaking french is no great loss, no matter how hard those in Quebec try to convince the rest of the country otherwise.

Iain

Wow - stepped on a nerve there didn't I? ;) Actually, I wasn't being patronising or putting down anyone. The reason I posted my post was that I felt you gave the impression that if you're not fluent in French then you would be turned away so I was making the point that this would be mainly the case in 'Frenchified' areas - by that I meant areas that speak French as the main language. I have no problems at all with Quebec being Francophone whatsoever, but I did have the impression before looking into emigrating to Canada myself that most of Canada had French as first language, and that just isn't so. I ain't gonna apologise as I don't feel I did or said anything wrong particularly - I'm afraid whatever conclusions you came to were totally wrong! :D

Afraid I read "Frenchified" as being a bit like "Gentrified" - it seemed to me that you were saying the French nature of Quebec is something of a pretty shop window but not really the real world.

I guess I was wrong about your meaning - apologies - but as that is so often the prevaling attitude in anglophone-canada it's not totally unreasonable to read your words that way. Way too many people who don't know tha place don't seem to understand why people here don't just "learn English" when in fact most of them do (there are more bilingual Canadians here than in the rest of this supposedly bilingual country).

Remember I'm from ex-colonialist, imperial England like most of the rest of the people around here but maybe because of that I feel embarrassed when anglophones just take it for granted that English is the way to go. Really, people here are very sensitive about this stuff for excellent reasons (look at the history) - it's not unlike the reasons behind Scottish Nationalism for example - and we need to be sensitive to that fact. Anyone immigrating here needs to understand that. We English have a long history of thinking we know what's best for the rest of the world - now we seem to have handed that attitude over to the Americans and have generally got over it ourselves, but ........

Anyway, this whole thread started with a discussion of the need to learn French if coming here. I still contend that wherever you eventually settle this is a bilingual country (even if half the people out west don't seem to have fully grasped the fact yet) and by not having at least some facilityt in the language you really will be cutting yourself off from the culture and motivations of a quarter of the population ....... and they all have votes in the federal elections too, so it's worth knowing where they are coming from.

You both made excellent points, but am afraid there is no brownie points for you two today, so stop the cat fight



:D :D :D

Hi Quebirder - I don't see this as a cat fight do you?

Anyway, I agree with you totally about using French as a means to integrate. I myself have been home studying French for years (started when we moved to Switzerland nearly 4 years ago and carried on since). I aslo did an advanced French conversational class when I was in the UK last summer - scared me half to death I have to admit :D as home study means you don't often get the chance to speak out loud, and as we lived in the Swiss German part I didn't regulalrly practise the language out there. Unfortunately the college didn't offer intermediate conversation only advanced or basic so I plumped my big bum in the deep end and thankfully just kept my head above water! When we get to Winnipeg we will be living right next door to the Francophone part of Winnipeg and really looking forward to popping by French style cafes and buying a baguette from the local magasin so I certainly have no problems at all with the French influence in Canada - in fact we hate the culture that seems to be lacking in middle America and can't wait to sample all the cultural differences in Winnipeg, including Ukraine, Italian, German, Vietnamese as well as French. Canada is a wonderful place for all types of backgrounds and I agree with you also that English speakers tend to be quite arrogant in their desire to speak their own language in other people's countries. Even in Switzerland I did my best to learn high German so that I could get my way around even though they all spoke Swiss German which was a complete different dialect and spelling so I was walking around as confused as ever! Anway, I don't think either of us were disagreeing with the other persons point of you - I'm more thinking of someone who may be browsing the forum and get scared off applying to move to Canada if they're not fluent in French that was all - no harm intended! :)

I'm a big pussy cat and don't fight with anyone - not a dog sort of person at all.

Absolutely - seems we are on the same wavelength about this. yes, one of the really terrific things about Canada - at least in the big cities - is the real mix of cultures ....... and the truly great restaurants that result from that. There is life outside of McDo's.

Thanks for the reply guys.

I have to admit that I would welcome the opportunity to learn another language, and if this provides hidden benefits like improved job prospects, so much the better.

I think in reply to the other comments regarding cultural differences, it is inevitable that most cultures cherish their identity and want to hold on to the last threads of their origins. Given the history of the French in Canada, it was fate that led to the country being held by the British, but this didn’t mean that the remaining French had to lose their identity. The French are currently battling to avoid their language being anglicised, but this is never entirely successful due to the strong influence of American culture.

All languages have ways of expression that make other languages pale in comparison. In India there is a type of Persian Poetry called Ghazals which to my mind are beyond compare, and cannot be interpreted into another language without losing their meaning. Some languages are almost pleasurable to speak in, and we should try and appreciate their existence although I think that deep inside due to our inability or failure to comprehend the meanings we dismiss these as somehow inferior to our own.

Vive la difference!



:beer: :beer:

An interesting comment. My wife is a fully bilingual, English Quebecer and having lived there for thirty years would possibly argue that some of the French Quebecers also haven't fully grasped the fact that Canada is bilingual.